Subject: Re: (urth) Prehistoric Starcrossers

From: Tony Ellis <littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 12:15:21 +0000

Jeff Wilson wrote:
>I'll bite; how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without
>leaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the
>archaeological record?

They certainly leave a hint in the story. The Old Wise One talks of a
"starcrosser", and later he seems to be remembering the actual splashdown
itself: "'Like a spark from the echoless vault of emptiness,' the Old Wise
One continued, 'the shining shape slipped steaming into the sea.'"

Notice the poetic, alliterative language the Old Wise One uses here, and
nowhere else. It's as if he's quoting some epic oral poem along the lines of
Homer. Another clue, I think, that there's a link between the ancient
civilisations of Earth and the Annese.

As for the archaeological record, who says they didn't leave a trace there?
We're talking about what may be the crushed and rusted remains of only a
single spaceship, trapped between two layers of sedimentary rock somewhere
on a big empty planet. Easy to miss.

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 26 Apr 2002 16:37:12 +0000

> civilisations of Earth and the Annese.

An interesting point about the style, though I don't think we're
expected to believe that Earth's ancient civilizations have a
monoply on alliteration.

> on a big empty planet. Easy to miss.

I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth.
Anyway, that's my question.  How could you make a spaceship without
a very large industrial society?  I think archeologists or
geologists would have found some remnants.

Jerry Friedman

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 06:00:41 +0000

> From: "Tony Ellis" <LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk>

> on a big empty planet. Easy to miss.

I meant _earthly_ archaeology record; where are the remnants of the
residences, strip mines, steel mills, chemical plants, fuel refineries,
and other features expected of an industrial society capable of building
a starcrosser? 

-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

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From: Tony Ellis <littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 09:04:50 +0000

> I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth.

Ooh now I see. Sorry Jeff.

> geologists would have found some remnants.

Well, Gondwanaland broke up a pretty long time ago, and Atlantis and Mu both
sank. But I see a long and slippery slope here, at the bottom of which I see
myself, arguing like a latter-day Von Daniken. Let me just say this instead:
I don't believe that in real life there was ever a prehistoric
super-civilisation on Earth. I also don't believe in travel by mirrors,
genetic memory, or a compassionate god. But when I come across these things
in a story, especially a story by Gene Wolfe, I'm happy to suspend my
disbelief for a while.

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Apr 2002 09:21:11 +0000

> in a story, especially a story by Gene Wolfe, I'm happy to suspend my

	I try to do the same, but since Wolfe brings the archaeological record
into the story, you have to really think about what he's trying say.
There is no mere mention and dismissal of lack of evidence, but a
repeated visitation of the subject, with the character of Marsch
entering all three novellas, and two of the main characters holding
forth on the proper interpretation of the archaeological record,
including what does and does not endure. Or are we supposed to think
grasses and animal tissue formed the structures of the original
starcrossing civilization?

	Rather than that, I think that it may be possible to explain the origin
of the abos and shadow children via the time shifting themes of 5HC, but
that would be another post.

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From: Filipe Silva <lafey at netcabo.pt>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 00:03:08 +0000

Greetings

In answer to:
"how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without
leaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the
archaeological record?"

It is possible to travel through ether leaving your physical form in the same 
place. Such phenomenon is called travel in the Jinas form (Hindostanic root). 
Any esoterist will acknowledge this. Mayan people did it all the time. Well 
evidences - you'll acknowledge that our civilization is crossing a Iron period 
where animal emotions rule our ways. Advanced men do not flatter 
themselves. Old civs did left evidence of their ways (in stone for instance) but 
we are in such a primary degenerate state comparing to them that we cannot 
see the obvious anymore - even with crude physical eyes. Periodic 
cataclysms like the one that struck Atlantis and before that Lemuria are 
meant to clean up "mankind" (in Lemuria men weren't exactly like we are 
nowadays). Our civilization time is ending - I wouldn't like to get much into 
eschatology - but lets go peacefully knowing that from our ashes others will 
arise - stronger and bond to have higher virtues. 
 +-----------------+
 |José Filipe Silva|
 | lafey at netcabo.pt|
 +-----------------+

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 04:38:24 +0000

> From: "Filipe Silva" <lafey at netcabo.pt>

> Any esoterist will acknowledge this. Mayan people did it all the time. 

	This I've heard of, but it is not specifically mentioned in the story,
and it would contradict the dependency the abos have on their physical
bodies. "A Story" has ghosts and the Wise Old One, but they are
ultimately dependent on abos with physical, living bodies for influence. 

> Well

	But doesn't Jinas travel confound this process of catclysmic
refinement? It lets the old, unimproved races escape their purification
by traveling to other planets, where they endure to late mingle with and
contaminate the successive civilizations' "higher virtues."

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 01 May 2002 14:13:11 +0000

on 4/28/02 7:03 PM, Filipe Silva at lafey at netcabo.pt wrote:

> place.
[snip]

Apart from anything else, the OWO states explicitly that the Shadow
Children's ancestors arrived in a "starcrosser" -- i.e. a spaceship (p. 125,
Ace edition).

--Adam

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