# Prehistoric Starcrossers *The Urth list — 8 messages, 5 voices, 26 Apr 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Tony Ellis *26 Apr 2002, 12:15* > Jeff Wilson wrote: > I'll bite; how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without > leaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the > archaeological record? They certainly leave a hint in the story. The Old Wise One talks of a "starcrosser", and later he seems to be remembering the actual splashdown itself: "'Like a spark from the echoless vault of emptiness,' the Old Wise One continued, 'the shining shape slipped steaming into the sea.'" Notice the poetic, alliterative language the Old Wise One uses here, and nowhere else. It's as if he's quoting some epic oral poem along the lines of Homer. Another clue, I think, that there's a link between the ancient civilisations of Earth and the Annese. As for the archaeological record, who says they didn't leave a trace there? We're talking about what may be the crushed and rusted remains of only a single spaceship, trapped between two layers of sedimentary rock somewhere on a big empty planet. Easy to miss. --- ### Jerry Friedman *26 Apr 2002, 16:37 · follows Tony Ellis* > --- Tony Ellis wrote: > Jeff Wilson wrote: >> I'll bite; how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without >> leaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the >> archaeological record? > They certainly leave a hint in the story. The Old Wise One talks of a > "starcrosser", and later he seems to be remembering the actual > splashdown > itself: "'Like a spark from the echoless vault of emptiness,' the Old > Wise > One continued, 'the shining shape slipped steaming into the sea.'" > > Notice the poetic, alliterative language the Old Wise One uses here, and > nowhere else. It's as if he's quoting some epic oral poem along the > lines of > Homer. Another clue, I think, that there's a link between the ancient > civilisations of Earth and the Annese. An interesting point about the style, though I don't think we're expected to believe that Earth's ancient civilizations have a monoply on alliteration. > As for the archaeological record, who says they didn't leave a trace > there? > We're talking about what may be the crushed and rusted remains of only a > single spaceship, trapped between two layers of sedimentary rock > somewhere > on a big empty planet. Easy to miss. I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth. Anyway, that's my question. How could you make a spaceship without a very large industrial society? I think archeologists or geologists would have found some remnants. Jerry Friedman --- ### Jeff Wilson *27 Apr 2002, 06:00 · follows Jerry Friedman* > From: "Tony Ellis" > Notice the poetic, alliterative language the Old Wise One uses here, and > nowhere else. It's as if he's quoting some epic oral poem along the lines of > Homer. Another clue, I think, that there's a link between the ancient > civilisations of Earth and the Annese. > > As for the archaeological record, who says they didn't leave a trace there? > We're talking about what may be the crushed and rusted remains of only a > single spaceship, trapped between two layers of sedimentary rock somewhere > on a big empty planet. Easy to miss. I meant _earthly_ archaeology record; where are the remnants of the residences, strip mines, steel mills, chemical plants, fuel refineries, and other features expected of an industrial society capable of building a starcrosser? ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law -- ``` --- ### Tony Ellis *27 Apr 2002, 09:04 · follows Jeff Wilson* Jerry Friedman: > I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth. Ooh now I see. Sorry Jeff. > Anyway, that's my question. How could you make a spaceship without > a very large industrial society? I think archeologists or > geologists would have found some remnants. Well, Gondwanaland broke up a pretty long time ago, and Atlantis and Mu both sank. But I see a long and slippery slope here, at the bottom of which I see myself, arguing like a latter-day Von Daniken. Let me just say this instead: I don't believe that in real life there was ever a prehistoric super-civilisation on Earth. I also don't believe in travel by mirrors, genetic memory, or a compassionate god. But when I come across these things in a story, especially a story by Gene Wolfe, I'm happy to suspend my disbelief for a while. --- ### Jeff Wilson *28 Apr 2002, 09:21 · follows Tony Ellis* > From: "Tony Ellis" > Jerry Friedman: >> I think Jeff is talking about the archeological record on Earth. > Ooh now I see. Sorry Jeff. >> Anyway, that's my question. How could you make a spaceship without >> a very large industrial society? I think archeologists or >> geologists would have found some remnants. > Well, Gondwanaland broke up a pretty long time ago, and Atlantis and Mu both > sank. But I see a long and slippery slope here, at the bottom of which I see > myself, arguing like a latter-day Von Daniken. Let me just say this instead: > I don't believe that in real life there was ever a prehistoric > super-civilisation on Earth. I also don't believe in travel by mirrors, > genetic memory, or a compassionate god. But when I come across these things > in a story, especially a story by Gene Wolfe, I'm happy to suspend my > disbelief for a while. I try to do the same, but since Wolfe brings the archaeological record into the story, you have to really think about what he's trying say. There is no mere mention and dismissal of lack of evidence, but a repeated visitation of the subject, with the character of Marsch entering all three novellas, and two of the main characters holding forth on the proper interpretation of the archaeological record, including what does and does not endure. Or are we supposed to think grasses and animal tissue formed the structures of the original starcrossing civilization? Rather than that, I think that it may be possible to explain the origin of the abos and shadow children via the time shifting themes of 5HC, but that would be another post. ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law -- ``` --- ### Filipe Silva *29 Apr 2002, 00:03 · follows Jeff Wilson* Greetings In answer to: "how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without leaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the archaeological record?" It is possible to travel through ether leaving your physical form in the same place. Such phenomenon is called travel in the Jinas form (Hindostanic root). Any esoterist will acknowledge this. Mayan people did it all the time. Well evidences - you'll acknowledge that our civilization is crossing a Iron period where animal emotions rule our ways. Advanced men do not flatter themselves. Old civs did left evidence of their ways (in stone for instance) but we are in such a primary degenerate state comparing to them that we cannot see the obvious anymore - even with crude physical eyes. Periodic cataclysms like the one that struck Atlantis and before that Lemuria are meant to clean up "mankind" (in Lemuria men weren't exactly like we are nowadays). Our civilization time is ending - I wouldn't like to get much into eschatology - but lets go peacefully knowing that from our ashes others will arise - stronger and bond to have higher virtues. +-----------------+ |José Filipe Silva| | lafey at netcabo.pt| +-----------------+ --- ### Jeff Wilson *29 Apr 2002, 04:38 · follows Filipe Silva* > From: "Filipe Silva" > In answer to: > "how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without > leaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the > archaeological record?" > > It is possible to travel through ether leaving your physical form in the same > place. Such phenomenon is called travel in the Jinas form (Hindostanic root). > Any esoterist will acknowledge this. Mayan people did it all the time. This I've heard of, but it is not specifically mentioned in the story, and it would contradict the dependency the abos have on their physical bodies. "A Story" has ghosts and the Wise Old One, but they are ultimately dependent on abos with physical, living bodies for influence. > Well > evidences - you'll acknowledge that our civilization is crossing a Iron period > where animal emotions rule our ways. Advanced men do not flatter > themselves. Old civs did left evidence of their ways (in stone for instance) but > we are in such a primary degenerate state comparing to them that we cannot > see the obvious anymore - even with crude physical eyes. Periodic > cataclysms like the one that struck Atlantis and before that Lemuria are > meant to clean up "mankind" (in Lemuria men weren't exactly like we are > nowadays). Our civilization time is ending - I wouldn't like to get much into > eschatology - but lets go peacefully knowing that from our ashes others will > arise - stronger and bond to have higher virtues. But doesn't Jinas travel confound this process of catclysmic refinement? It lets the old, unimproved races escape their purification by traveling to other planets, where they endure to late mingle with and contaminate the successive civilizations' "higher virtues." ``` Jeff Wilson How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789 "If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law -- ``` --- ### Adam Stephanides *01 May 2002, 14:13 · follows Jeff Wilson* > on 4/28/02 7:03 PM, Filipe Silva at lafey at netcabo.pt wrote: > In answer to: > "how did the prehistoric societies travel the stars without > leaving any hint of their ability to do so in either the story or the > archaeological record?" > > > It is possible to travel through ether leaving your physical form in the same > place. [snip] Apart from anything else, the OWO states explicitly that the Shadow Children's ancestors arrived in a "starcrosser" -- i.e. a spaceship (p. 125, Ace edition). --Adam ---