{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3204", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3204, "subject": "What abos? [Was Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?]", "messages": 13, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-04-26T21:10:29+00:00", "last": "2002-05-02T21:42:51+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-26T21:10:29+00:00", "subject": "What abos? [Was Re: (urth) 5HC: Shadow Children in the Lupiverse?]", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How come you guys are all so convinced the abos exist? It seems\nambiguous at best. The alternate theory would be that, inspired\nby his father's con and escaping his squalid life, young Victor\nTrenchard has developed an elaborate fantasy about the fabulous\nabos, which he may even think is true. John Marsch shows up with\na will to believe and falls for Victor's imaginary friends in a sort\nof folie a deux.\n\nPro-abo: Many people in the Sainte-Sainte system believe in them.\n\nReply: Many people on Earth believe in the yeti, Bigfoot (ObWolfe:\nAdorable Woods Woman), the Loch Ness monster, alien abductors, and\nfairies (see below). We seem to like populating the wilderness.\nAlso, some people--Dr. Hagsmith, at least--don't believe in them.\n\nPro-abo: John V. Marsch looks unusual to Number Five.\n\nReply: A hint, but I don't find it that convincing. Maybe he's\njust unusual-looking.\n\nPro-abo: Mrs. Blount says she's seen them.\n\nReply: This is the strongest textual evidence I've found, but as a\nchild she could have been mistaken or lied to (to justify her\nfather's shooting thieving human children!), or she could be\nremembering wrong. Or Marsch could conceivably have made up that\npart of the conversation. (The transition is a bit abrupt.)\n\nIs there *any* other textual evidence except from Victor? Assuming\nhe's John V. Marsch.\n\nPro-abo: Wolfe is usually on the side of credu^H^H^H^H^H belief.\n\nReply: Another strong argument, though extra-textual, and there's a\nfirst time for everything.\n\n\nAnti-abo: There is no skeletal evidence, although Earthly\nexplorers went to considerable effort to bring back specimens of\nanimals (dead or alive) and humans (alive).\n\nReply: I'll let the people who believe in them reply. I will point\nout, however, that the (apparently) original Marsch tells us that\nthe \"Good People\" were proven to exist, so maybe we're supposed to\nbelieve that a sentient race could populate a region and leave almost\nno trace.\n\nAnti-abo: There's no trace of the abos' language.\n\nReply: Did they learn English telepathically? Did they ever have a\nlanguage of their own?\n\nAnti-abo: You apparently have to believe either 1) Prehistoric\nEarth humans had space flight, for which there's a compelling lack\nof evidence.\n\n2) Parallel evolution reached the point where humans and abos are\n(nearly?) indistinguishable and, in many of your versions, can\ninterbreed.\n\n3) Humanity originated somewhere other than Earth. These last two\nhave a serious conflict with evolutionary thought, as Dan'l pointed\nout.\n\nReply: Maybe implausible, but all traditional sf assumptions.\n\n--- Tony Ellis wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Personally, I have never felt that Victor had any sort of hidden agenda\nfor\nwriting 'A Story'. Making him the author always seemed to me to be\nsimply a\nframing device, of which Wolfe is inordinately fond. Like Latro's\nscrolls,\nor Cutthroat's recording gadget, or making Horn the author of the Book\nof the Long Sun." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nHow about his motive being enjoying and spreading his fantasy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Looking more or less haggard is not, by my definition, shapeshifting.\nTrenchard, who has witnessed this ability firsthand, does not even\nbelieve\nit is in any way superhuman: \"A matter of the voice, you understand, and\nthe\nmuscles of the face.\" There's a hint that there may be more to it than\nthat\nin the way Victor interjects \"Everything!\" at this point, and I've\nsuggested\nbefore now that it could be partially telepathic. But it's not the\ntransformation of a human being into a \"household utensil\" as Dr\nHagsmith puts it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, Victor is eager to provide evidence for the abos' existence.\n\nTo sum up: I see more and better evidence against the abos' existence\nthan for it.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-27T09:44:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nTo sum up: I see more and better evidence against the abos' existence\nthan for it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pro abo:\nHaving primed us with the knowledge that abos can't use tools, Wolfe tells\nus over and over again that Victor is completely ham-fisted. More than that,\nhe makes Marsch, the arrogant academic who is looking for abos, tell us this\nover and over, without once making the connection. This is typical both of\nthe way Wolfe encodes true information, and of his penchant for poking fun\nat academics.\n\nThe account of Rober Culot. And don't forget that the interviews we see are\nonly the tip of the iceberg of accounts Marsch has gathered.\n\nMarsch himself writes \"There was a native race. The stories are too\nwidespread, to circumstantial, too well documented.\" He may be arrogant,\nbut he's not stupid, and he's put in the legwork.\n\nAnd finally. If there really aren't any abos, doesn't that make for kind of\na dull story? :-)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-27T19:27:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Tony Ellis wrote:\nJerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To sum up: I see more and better evidence against the abos' existence\nthan for it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pro abo:\nHaving primed us with the knowledge that abos can't use tools, Wolfe\ntells\nus over and over again that Victor is completely ham-fisted. More than\nthat,\nhe makes Marsch, the arrogant academic who is looking for abos, tell us\nthis\nover and over, without once making the connection. This is typical both\nof\nthe way Wolfe encodes true information, and of his penchant for poking\nfun at academics." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Victor again. If he fantasizes that he's an abo, you would expect him\nto pretend to be ham-fisted, or he may be taking \"advantage\" of and\neven \"developing\" his natural clumsiness. I can just see him at five\nrefusing to hold the pencil the way the other kids did." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The account of Rober Culot" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He remembers that his grandfather claimed to see abos in order to\nannoy Robert's father (if I remember right)--not very convincing.\nBy the way, the surname \"Culot\" doesn't inspire confidence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And don't forget that the interviews we see are\nonly the tip of the iceberg of accounts Marsch has gathered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We have no idea what the rest are like." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Marsch himself writes \"There was a native race. The stories are too\nwidespread, to circumstantial, too well documented.\" He may be\narrogant, but he's not stupid, and he's put in the legwork." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Above you made him look pretty stupid. Anyway, Marsch wants to find\nabos, so it's no surprise that he believes he does. He may be right,\nor he may be thinking wishfully." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And finally. If there really aren't any abos, doesn't that make for kind\nof a dull story? :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe, maybe not. I like _Pale Fire_ a lot, though my reading of it\nis that Kinbote and Shade don't exist. (My suggestions here may have\nbeen influenced a lot by _Pale Fire_.)\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-28T11:27:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (of the account of Robert Culot):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He remembers that his grandfather claimed to see abos in order to\nannoy Robert's father (if I remember right)--not very convincing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, you remember wrong. He remembers his grandfather as \"'a most\nhonest old man. He would not tell lies to anyone, you understand.'\" But\nperhaps he is delusional, like Victor. Or stupid, like Doctor Marsch. Or\nlied to, like Madame Blount. :-)\n\nAnd that (alongside the what-a-boring-story factor) is the problem I have\nwith the no-abos theory, which I have certainly considered many times during\nmy re-readings of 5HC down the years. There is all sorts of evidence in the\nnovellas indicating that the abos exist, and to say that they don't forces\nyou to invent an excuse for every last piece of it. If it feels right for\nyou, fair enough, but to me it just feels like struggling against the\nnatural current of the story, as opposed to letting it take me where it\nwants to go." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-04-29T20:42:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Tony Ellis wrote:\nJerry Friedman wrote (of the account of Robert Culot):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He remembers that his grandfather claimed to see abos in order to\nannoy Robert's father (if I remember right)--not very convincing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, you remember wrong. He remembers his grandfather as \"'a most\nhonest old man. He would not tell lies to anyone, you understand.'\" But\nperhaps he is delusional, like Victor. Or stupid, like Doctor Marsch. Or\nlied to, like Madame Blount. :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or senile. Or the younger Culot could be lying. Or just mistaken.\n\nBy the way, you were the one who said the real Dr. Marsch was stupid\nfor not recognizing Victor's clumsiness as a sign that he was an abo.\nBut Victor wasn't clumsy. According to Marsch, he was an excellent\ncamp cook (which must involve using knives, spatulas, etc.), brilliant\nwith ropes, and capable of pounding tent pegs with a rock. He just\ncouldn't write in the normal way or shoot. Victor's skills with tools\ncould be a sign that he's not an abo--or that he's half abo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And that (alongside the what-a-boring-story factor) is the problem I\nhave\nwith the no-abos theory, which I have certainly considered many times\nduring\nmy re-readings of 5HC down the years. There is all sorts of evidence in\nthe\nnovellas indicating that the abos exist, and to say that they don't\nforces\nyou to invent an excuse for every last piece of it. If it feels right\nfor\nyou, fair enough, but to me it just feels like struggling against the\nnatural current of the story, as opposed to letting it take me where it\nwants to go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Precisely my problem with the abos theory. You have to invent some\nreally enormous excuses. This is, after all, a future in which\nanthropologists are desperate for new material. There should be\nroomsful of videotapes of the abos' quaint ceremonies. There should\nbe treaties. There should be chiefs or supposed chiefs being briefly\nlionized in the capitals of Earth. There should have been a large\nreward for abo remains, so Mrs. Blount's father wouldn't have dreamed\nof just leaving them for the wild animals. These lacks seem much\nharder to gloss over than the testimony of a few individuals.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-29T21:21:37+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry observed that:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Victor wasn't clumsy. According to Marsch, he was an excellent\ncamp cook (which must involve using knives, spatulas, etc.), brilliant\nwith ropes, and capable of pounding tent pegs with a rock. He just\ncouldn't write in the normal way or shoot. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or start a fire.\n\nActually, here's a weird interpretation of 5HC: Suppose we presume \nthat _everyone_, in all three novellas, is actually telling the truth \n-- as he sees it, for his or her own reasons? Sort of a reversal of \nthe \"unreliable narrator\" tactic. Does this create an unworkable set \nof contradictions, or can these all be reasonably attributed to the\ndifferences between their various perspectives?\n\nThere's a quote on my old ACE edition from (I think) Ursula K. Le Guin\n(btw, has anyone else read the new Earthsea novel? I'm about halfway\nthrough it and I think it's the best thing she's written in many years)\nto the effect that 5HC is a fictional dramatization of the uncertainty \nprinciple.\n\nOkay, so what does that mean? Does she mean it the way a physicist \nwould mean it, i.e., that there is an absolute limit to how much you \ncan know about something and if you make one aspect of it more certain\nyou make another aspect less certain? Or is she referring to the all\ntoo common social scientist's misreading of the principle, the idea \nthat \"[the presence of] the observer affects the outcome/results of the \nexperiment?\"\n\nI suspect that she actually means the former. Though Le Guin is not a\nhard science fiction writer, she has repeatedly (and especially in THE\nDISPOSSESSED) shown that she takes the trouble to understand the hard\nsciences, even if she chooses to override them (i.e., the way just about \neveryone overrides the hard sciences by allowing FTL communication and/or \ntravel); I'm reasonably sure she wouldn't make the error of the latter.\n\nBut then what does she mean? My initial thought is that she's saying \nthat the more closely you look at any given aspect of 5HC, the more some\nother aspect(s) will go out of focus. So you can develop a theory of the\nwhole book that doesn't get too detailed, or you can develop a theory that\nexplains any given aspect of it in a completely satisfying way but doesn't\nfit with some other aspect(s): in short, no complete theory for\nunderstanding\n5HC may be possible.\n\nDoes this ring true?\n\nI fear it may." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-30T11:47:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (of the non-existence of the abos):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, you remember wrong. He remembers his grandfather as \"'a most\nhonest old man. He would not tell lies to anyone, you understand.'\" But\nperhaps he is delusional, like Victor. Or stupid, like Doctor Marsch. Or\nlied to, like Madame Blount. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or senile. Or the younger Culot could be lying. Or just mistaken." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None of which is supported by the text. And none of which disproves the\nexistence of the abos, until you also invent similar extra-textual reasons\nwhy every other piece of evidence is wrong. Robert Culot was senile _and_\nVictor is delusional _and_ Doctor Marsch is stupid _and_ Madame Blount was\nlied to, and so on and on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, you were the one who said the real Dr. Marsch was stupid\nfor not recognizing Victor's clumsiness as a sign that he was an abo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the way, I didn't. I said he was arrogant, and that his failing to make\nthe connection was \"typical both of\nthe way Wolfe encodes true information, and of his penchant for poking fun\nat academics.\" You can be unimaginative without being stupid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Victor wasn't clumsy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In your post of April 27 you state \"If he fantasizes that he's an abo, you\nwould expect him to pretend to be ham-fisted\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "According to Marsch, he was an excellent\ncamp cook (which must involve using knives, spatulas, etc.)," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Marsch doesn't tell us what it involves (and I've known more than one\nexcellent cook who regularly sliced his own fingers with the onions). Wolfe\ndoes, however, make him tell us that \"Even so, he burns his fingers pretty\noften, I notice.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brilliant with ropes," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which we would expect from a people whose reliance on knotting \"nets of\nrawhide or vegetable fibre\" as Number Five puts it, is foreshadowed waaay\nback in the early pages of the first novella. And raised several times\nsubsequently." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and capable of pounding tent pegs with a rock." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A feat rather less impressive than his ability to use a pen. The\nsignificance of the peg-pounding incident is that it reveals, as Marsch\ndiscovers, that \"we had not brought an ax, or any other sort of implement\nwith which to drive the tent pegs.\" Odd, that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He just couldn't write in the normal way or shoot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or cook without regularly burning his fingers.\nOr use matches.\nOr make flint weapons as well as his crippled father.\nOr \"even remember the way to twist open the top of a jar.\"\n\n\nOn the existence of the abos:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have to invent some really enormous excuses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you just have to read the text:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There should be roomsful of videotapes of the abos' quaint\nceremonies. There should be treaties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We are told, more than once, of \"the destruction of the records of the first\nFrench landing parties by the war.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There should be chiefs or supposed chiefs being briefly\nlionized in the capitals of Earth. There should have been a large\nreward for abo remains, so Mrs. Blount's father wouldn't have dreamed\nof just leaving them for the wild animals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You seem to be crediting these colonists from a future, overcrowed, and very\ndistant Earth with a degree of philanthropy and compassion entirely absent\nfrom the picture Wolfe paints -- which is based very obviously on the\ntreatment of the Australian and Tasmanian aborigines by early Western\nsettlers.\n\nR.T.: \".but would they be wise to show themselves? Once all this world of\nSainte Anne was theirs. A farmer thinks: \"Suppose they are men like me after\nall? That Dupont, he is a clever lawyer. What if they engage him, eh?\" .What\ndo you think the farmer does then if he sees an abo on his land, Doctor?\nWill he tell anyone? Or will he shoot?\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-01T22:20:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Tony Ellis wrote:\nJerry Friedman wrote (of the non-existence of the abos):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually, you remember wrong. He remembers his grandfather as \"'a\nmost\nhonest old man. He would not tell lies to anyone, you understand.'\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But\nperhaps he is delusional, like Victor. Or stupid, like Doctor Marsch.\nOr\nlied to, like Madame Blount. :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or senile. Or the younger Culot could be lying. Or just mistaken." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "None of which is supported by the text. And none of which disproves the\nexistence of the abos," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, of course not. I also can't disprove the existence of the \nahool, a Javanese bat with a nearly twelve-foot wingspan that you\ncan read about on a few Web sites. In fact, it could exist. But\nin the absence of stuffed ahools in natural-history museums, or at\nleast a few photos, I'm not going to believe in them on the\nstrength of an explorer's saying he saw one and reports that the\nlocal people believe in them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "until you also invent similar extra-textual reasons\nwhy every other piece of evidence is wrong. Robert Culot was senile\n_and_\nVictor is delusional _and_ Doctor Marsch is stupid _and_ Madame Blount\nwas lied to, and so on and on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see any \"and so on\", except the widespread belief in the\nabos, which I've already mentioned. (Though if you're convinced that\nthe cat is the same being as Victor's girlfriend, that pretty much\nsettles it, I guess.)\n\nThere's an extra-textual *fact* that the kind of testimony Marsch\ngets from Mrs. Blount and especially Robert Culot is unreliable. A\nvisit to will show you lots of\nexamples. The evidence for Sasquatch or UFO abductions is surely\nbetter than the evidence in 5HC for the abos. Culot's contribution\nis hearsay, not admissible in court, of no value for science. It\nprobably does have some evidential value in fiction, but we have to\nweigh it against other evidence. See below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "By the way, you were the one who said the real Dr. Marsch was stupid\nfor not recognizing Victor's clumsiness as a sign that he was an abo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, I didn't. I said he was arrogant, and that his failing to\nmake\nthe connection was \"typical both of\nthe way Wolfe encodes true information, and of his penchant for poking\nfun\nat academics.\" You can be unimaginative without being stupid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry. I didn't say he was stupid either; I said he found what he\nexpected to find, an error that highly intelligent people have made.\n\n[Big snip--I'll try to address Victor's clumsiness in another post.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the existence of the abos:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You have to invent some really enormous excuses." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, you just have to read the text:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There should be roomsful of videotapes of the abos' quaint\nceremonies. There should be treaties." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are told, more than once, of \"the destruction of the records of the\nfirst\nFrench landing parties by the war.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant the evidence on Earth. Unless the starcrossers made one-way\ntrips, they would have brought back videotapes or films, remains, and\nwhatever else they could get their hands on. What else did they have\nto bring back?\n\nAlso, if you accept Mrs. Blount's statement, there was contact with\nthe abos after the war and no reason for any records of that to be\nlost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There should be chiefs or supposed chiefs being briefly\nlionized in the capitals of Earth. There should have been a large\nreward for abo remains, so Mrs. Blount's father wouldn't have dreamed\nof just leaving them for the wild animals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You seem to be crediting these colonists from a future, overcrowed, and\nvery\ndistant Earth with a degree of philanthropy and compassion entirely\nabsent\nfrom the picture Wolfe paints -- which is based very obviously on the\ntreatment of the Australian and Tasmanian aborigines by early Western\nsettlers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I'm crediting them with the same degree of curiosity, interest\nin science, and greed that Europeans had at the time of the\ncolonization of the Americas and Australia. (I certainly didn't mean\nto imply that the treaties would be kept!)\n\nColumbus brought back six Indians on his first voyage, of whom four\ndied before reaching Spain\n. There was\nat least American Indian (ObWolfe: Squanto) in Britain before the\n_Mayflower_ sailed. I had remarkable difficulty finding similar\ninformation about Australia. The best I've got is from a strikingly\nracist lecture by Thomas Huxley in 1862, that is, 84 years after\nthe first European settlement. By that time Huxley could say,\n\"...in the College of Surgeons there are a number of skulls of\nSouthern Australians...\"\n. (Earlier\npages at that site contain interesting information on his difficulties\nin getting photographs of aborigines.)\n\nWe know that anthropology is going strong enough on Earth to pay\nfor Dr. Marsch's expedition, and we know there are the resources and\ninterest to come up with _A Field Guide to the Animals of Sainte\nAnne_. I'd expect that if the Annese could be captured or killed,\nliving individuals or remains would have been brought to Earth. The\ncase is even stronger for videotapes, rawhide or vegetable-fiber\nnets, and whatever else might have been available. The absence of\nthese would be unprecedented and strikes me as strong evidence\nagainst the abos' existence. The possibility of mistakes or\ndishonesty on the part of a few individuals has more than ample\nprecedent, and so their statements strike me as weaker evidence.\nRemember the Loch Ness monster!\n\nWolfe could easily provide us with certain evidence of the abos if\nhe wanted to. Just as an example, when Marsch meets Trenchard, he\ncould note, \"This old faker's face had none of the characteristics of\nthe Annese skulls in Paris, and his voice didn't resemble the\nrecordings.\" I feel sure that Wolfe wanted the matter to be open\nto doubt." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "R.T.: \".but would they be wise to show themselves? Once all this world\nof\nSainte Anne was theirs. A farmer thinks: \"Suppose they are men like me\nafter\nall? That Dupont, he is a clever lawyer. What if they engage him, eh?\"\n.What\ndo you think the farmer does then if he sees an abo on his land, Doctor?\nWill he tell anyone? Or will he shoot?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "R.T. is a con man trying to keep a potential source of money from\ngetting skeptical. Furthermore, Mrs. Blount's story (if you believe\nher) states that in her case the abos did show themselves, though as\nTrenchard suggests they were unwise to do so. In the same way Dr.\nHagsmith's story of the massacre (if you believe it) has the abos\nunable to avoid Earth people. Is it possible to come up with any\naccount of the abos (or more than one) in which you decide what to\naccept and what to reject, and end up with something that doesn't\ncontradict itself?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-02T04:26:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What Abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry F. having opined:\n\n\"Wolfe could easily provide us with certain evidence of the abos if he\nwanted to. Just as an example, when Marsch meets Trenchard, he could note,\n'This old faker's face had none of the characteristics of the Annese skulls\nin Paris, and his voice didn't resemble the recordings.' I feel sure that\nWolfe wanted the matter to be open to doubt.\"\n\nDo interviews count?\n\nIn Lawrence Person's interview of Gene Wolfe for Nova Express (Fall/Winter\n1998), the following exchange takes place between Person and Wolfe:\n\nLP: Speaking of the New Wave, _The Fifth Head of Cerberus_, especially in\nbook form, does utilize a lot of New Wave techniques, including non-linear\nnarrative forms and unreliable narrators. Why did you feel you needed to\ntell these interlocked stories in that particular way?\n\nGW: (Snip, snip, snip. Then:) Once I had done the original story, I wanted\nto do other related stories so that I could make a book, and the obvious\nthing seemed to be to do a prequel and a sequel, which is basically what I\ndid. So they're nonlinear, if you want to put it like that. Of course, I did\ndo the rather tricky thing, which I suppose is New Wave, of having one of\nthe characters in one of the other stories as the purported author of, a,\naggh...I'm sorry, I've lost the titles of my own stories.\n\nLP: \"'A Story,' by John V. Marsch.\"\n\nGW: \"'A Story,' by John V. Marsch,\" yes, which is not actually written by\nJohn V. Marsch, but by the shadowchild who has _replaced_ John V. Marsch.\n(Italics Wolfe's)\n\n(Apologies to Editor Person for the copyright violation, but the interview\nis otherwide unavailable, the issue having sold out.)\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Ingram", "address": "j_ingram at mac.com" }, "date": "2002-05-02T05:21:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What Abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sounds like a valuable interview. It pushes back the 'unreliable \nnarrator' question one level: are we to take the term \"shadowchild\" \nliterally, or to view it as a slip where \"abo\" was intended?\n\n(pedantic aside: style guides vary, and at least one leaves \ncapitalization in the case of independent clauses following colons \noptional.)\n\nSepia" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wednesday, May 1, 2002, at 09:26 PM, Robert Borski wrote:\nGW: \"'A Story,' by John V. Marsch,\" yes, which is not actually written \nby\nJohn V. Marsch, but by the shadowchild who has _replaced_ John V. \nMarsch.\n(Italics Wolfe's)\n\n(Apologies to Editor Person for the copyright violation, but the \ninterview\nis otherwide unavailable, the issue having sold out.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-02T11:54:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nUnless the starcrossers made one-way\ntrips, they would have brought back videotapes or films, remains, and\nwhatever else they could get their hands on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're not told what sort of communication went on between the first settlers\nand Earth. But if we're going to indulge in speculation, we can just as\neasily speculate that there was none at all, that the French settlers came\nto the system with the precise intention of breaking all ties with Earth.\nAfter all, the texts do tell us that:\n\n1. It takes over 20 years, Earth time, for a starcrosser to get to St Anne.\nAnother 20-plus to get back.\n2. Relations between Earth and the French settlers were sufficiently bad for\na full-scale war to erupt.\n\nNeither of which exactly suggests a lively and co-operative exchange. We are\nalso told that the Annese were a \"thinly-scattered\" people, who \"died off\nbefore they could be thoroughly studied,\" which doesn't argue for there\nbeing many photo-opportunities in any case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know that anthropology is going strong enough on Earth to pay\nfor Dr. Marsch's expedition" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The successful funding of which rather suggests that sufficient evidence\n_did_ get back in the end, does it not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, if you accept Mrs. Blount's statement, there was contact with\nthe abos after the war and no reason for any records of that to be\nlost." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you accept Madame Blount's statement, after the war the abos were (a)\nthought of as \"animals shaped like people\", (b) shot with impunity, and (c)\ndisposed of after shooting. That's about as far away from making records as\nyou can get." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-02T15:45:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What Abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/1/02 11:26 PM, Robert Borski at rborski at charter.net wrote:\nGW: \"'A Story,' by John V. Marsch,\" yes, which is not actually written by\nJohn V. Marsch, but by the shadowchild who has _replaced_ John V. Marsch.\n(Italics Wolfe's)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is an interesting bit of info, but it can't be literally true that\nVictor is one of the Shadow Children: he refers to his mother as one of the\nFree People (p. 240, Ace pb), whom he regards as distinct from the Shadow\nChildren, and he obviously looks nothing like the Shadow Children of \"A\nStory.\"\n\nIn any case, this interview was conducted twenty-six years after the story\nwas written, so I wouldn't take it as conclusive, no matter how it's\ninterpreted.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-02T21:42:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: What abos?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Tony Ellis wrote:\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, if you accept Mrs. Blount's statement, there was contact with\nthe abos after the war and no reason for any records of that to be\nlost." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you accept Madame Blount's statement, after the war the abos were (a)\nthought of as \"animals shaped like people\", (b) shot with impunity, and\n(c)\ndisposed of after shooting. That's about as far away from making records\nas you can get." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, thanks to Robert Borski, it's settled now, and you were right.\n(Despite the discrepancies Adam Stephanides pointed out, I'd take\nWolfe's remark as showing that there were intelligent beings on \nSainte Anne when the French landed.)\n\nThe above is an interesting issue, though. Your (a) and (b) are\ntotally consistent with records--that's how there are stuffed\nspecimens of animals in museums, of which Sainte Croix has one.\nThe question is why there aren't abo specimens in the museum. Maybe\nit's because of the point made by Roy Trenchard in the interview\nyou quoted, which as people have noted echoes something David says:\nthe people of Sainte-Sainte don't *really* think of the abos as\nanimals, or at least they're aware that some authority might force\nthem to stop doing so, so they don't want any evidence of killing\nabos.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }