{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3207", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3207, "subject": "uncut dogs", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-04-27T18:27:39+00:00", "last": "2002-05-22T15:05:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-04-27T18:49:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hartshorn having rather unprudishly pondered:\n\n\"When Marsh remarks that the boy is \"uncut\" and *therefore* when he was with\nthe girl, would \"bind\", or something like that (sorry I can't lay my hand on\nmy copy of 5HC rigth now) , what the hell is he talking about?\"\n\nActually, I've written an entire essay on this and it can be found at:\n\nhttp://webpages.charter.net/rborski/marsch.html\n\nThe same essay also contains several reasons why Victor might have killed\nhis abo girlfriend. (Check it out, Tony.)\n\nWhat I fail to point out and would like to do now is this:\n\nVictor, it's noted by Dr. Marsch, is uncircumcised. If we assume that\nMarsch, however, has been circumcised, this means that Victor--after he's\nkilled Marsch--must circumcise himself if he wishes to pass as Dr. Marsch.\nAnd that is the purpose of the brass instrument he buys, the \"thing of\nclamps and toothed jaws and cruel little hooks.\"\n\nIt's what an Victorian-era mohel would use to perform the necessary surgery.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-04-27T18:27:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" \n\nActually, I've written an entire essay on this and it can be found at:\n\nhttp://webpages.charter.net/rborski/marsch.html" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I read that, and I got the reference to circumcision. What I don't\nget is what seems to be Marsch's assumption that these two get locked\ntogether like dogs.\n\nEither this is someting about Abo sex, and signals that VRT is writing, not\nMarsch: or I am misunderstanding completely. Still can't find my 5HC. Can\nanyone trace the passage for me?\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-04-29T15:05:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For what it's worth...\n\nI've read somewhere that the primary sexual characteristic of the \ntom housecat is, uh, sort of barbed and tends to get stuck coming \nout. The evolutionary excuse for this is that it makes the queen \nunwilling to mate again for a while, so the first male's sperm \nhave more time to find & fertilize the ova before any competitors \ncome along.\n\nI can't verify that this is true, but if Wolfe read the same thing\nI did [and he seems to read just about everything 8*)], then this\ncould explain the quote in question ... after all, she's a cat ..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-21T02:16:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Paging through my old messages, I came across the following year-old post by\nAndy Robertson:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Marsh remarks that the boy is \"uncut\" and *therefore* when he was with\nthe girl, would \"bind\", or something like that (sorry I can't lay my hand on\nmy copy of 5HC rigth now) , what the hell is he talking about?\n\n\n\"They would bind, I know. I think I would kill them if I found them like\nthat\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(from memory)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've just consulted my copy of 5HC, and there's nothing in that passage\nabout \"binding.\" The relevant parts of that entry are \"I could climb down\nand catch them together (I _know_ she is with him, I can almost hear them),\nexcept that I can smell the ghoul-bear somewhere near. They would die, the\ntwo of them -- when the boy was washing I noticed he wasn't circumcised. If\nthey were like that when I came, I think I would shoot them both.\" (p. 251,\nAce pb) So either there's a major discrepancy here between the Ace pb and\nother editions, or the whole \"binding\" theme is a non-issue (which, of\ncourse, makes Marsch's remark about Victor's non-circumcision even more\nirrelevant).\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-21T08:09:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Stephanides\" \nI've just consulted my copy of 5HC, and there's nothing in that passage\nabout \"binding.\" The relevant parts of that entry are \"I could climb down\nand catch them together (I _know_ she is with him, I can almost hear\nthem),\nexcept that I can smell the ghoul-bear somewhere near. They would die,\nthe\ntwo of them -- when the boy was washing I noticed he wasn't circumcised." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "they were like that when I came, I think I would shoot them both.\" (p." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "251," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ace pb) So either there's a major discrepancy here between the Ace pb and\nother editions, or the whole \"binding\" theme is a non-issue (which, of\ncourse, makes Marsch's remark about Victor's non-circumcision even more\nirrelevant)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoops.\n\nThe problem is my Quartet edition, which has this misprint\n\n \"they would *tie*, the two of them\"\n\nProblem solved, and apologies all round.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-21T15:21:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, hartshorn/Quartet are right (agreeing with Scribners hc), Ace is in\nerror (add that one to the \"Many Pink Butterflies\" instead of \"Mary Pink\nButterflies\" error).\n\nScribners hc:\n\n\"they would tie, the two of them\" (227)\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n31 copies of \"Snake's-hands\" until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-21T15:46:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" \nNo, hartshorn/Quartet are right (agreeing with Scribners hc), Ace is in\nerror (add that one to the \"Many Pink Butterflies\" instead of \"Mary Pink\nButterflies\" error)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"they would tie, the two of them\" (227)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, back where we were then.\n\nWhy \"tie\"? And how/why is this specifically linked to being uncircumcised?\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-22T15:05:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) uncut dogs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/21/02 10:46 AM, Andy Robertson at andywrobertson at clara.co.uk wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" \nNo, hartshorn/Quartet are right (agreeing with Scribners hc), Ace is in\nerror (add that one to the \"Many Pink Butterflies\" instead of \"Mary Pink\nButterflies\" error)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"they would tie, the two of them\" (227)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, back where we were then.\n\nWhy \"tie\"? And how/why is this specifically linked to being uncircumcised?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The OED gives as one meaning of \"tie\" for a dog and a bitch to be linked\nduring copulation. But it's still strange. Marsch is an anthropologist;\nyou'd expect him to have read about uncircumcised peoples, and to be aware\nthat \"tying\" doesn't happen. And why does he anticipate being especially\nenraged by seeing Victor and his girl \"tied,\" as opposed to just having sex?\n\nAs for the significance of Victor's non-circumcision in itself, here's one\ntheory. In anthropology, the Australian aborigines are known for rigorous\nmale initiation rites at puberty, which generally involve circumcision. If\nthe same is true of the Free People, then Victor's non-circumcision might be\none reason he thinks of himself as a child.\n\n--Adam" } ] } ] }