Subject: (urth) uncut dogs

From: Robert Borski <rborski at charter.net>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 18:49:48 +0000

hartshorn having rather unprudishly pondered:

"When Marsh remarks that the boy is "uncut" and *therefore* when he was with
the girl, would "bind", or something like that (sorry I can't lay my hand on
my copy of 5HC rigth now) , what the hell is he talking about?"

Actually, I've written an entire essay on this and it can be found at:

http://webpages.charter.net/rborski/marsch.html

The same essay also contains several reasons why Victor might have killed
his abo girlfriend. (Check it out, Tony.)

What I fail to point out and would like to do now is this:

Victor, it's noted by Dr. Marsch, is uncircumcised. If we assume that
Marsch, however, has been circumcised, this means that Victor--after he's
killed Marsch--must circumcise himself if he wishes to pass as Dr. Marsch.
And that is the purpose of the brass instrument he buys, the "thing of
clamps and toothed jaws and cruel little hooks."

It's what an Victorian-era mohel would use to perform the necessary surgery.

Robert Borski

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 27 Apr 2002 18:27:39 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Robert Borski" <rborski at charter.net>
> http://webpages.charter.net/rborski/marsch.html

Yeah, I read that, and I got the reference to circumcision.   What I don't
get is what seems to be Marsch's assumption that these two get locked
together like dogs.

Either this is someting about Abo sex, and signals that VRT is writing, not
Marsch: or I am misunderstanding completely.  Still can't find my 5HC.  Can
anyone trace the passage for me?

    hartshorn

    hartshorn

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Apr 2002 15:05:20 +0000

For what it's worth...

I've read somewhere that the primary sexual characteristic of the 
tom housecat is, uh, sort of barbed and tends to get stuck coming 
out. The evolutionary excuse for this is that it makes the queen 
unwilling to mate again for a while, so the first male's sperm 
have more time to find & fertilize the ova before any competitors 
come along.

I can't verify that this is true, but if Wolfe read the same thing
I did [and he seems to read just about everything 8*)], then this
could explain the quote in question ... after all, she's a cat ...

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 02:16:01 +0000

Paging through my old messages, I came across the following year-old post by
Andy Robertson:

> When Marsh remarks that the boy is "uncut" and *therefore* when he was with
> my copy of 5HC rigth now) , what the hell is he talking about?
> 
> 
> "They would bind, I know.  I think I would kill them if I found them like
> that"

> (from memory)

I've just consulted my copy of 5HC, and there's nothing in that passage
about "binding."  The relevant parts of that entry are "I could climb down
and catch them together (I _know_ she is with him, I can almost hear them),
except that I can smell the ghoul-bear somewhere near.  They would die, the
two of them -- when the boy was washing I noticed he wasn't circumcised.  If
they were like that when I came, I think I would shoot them both."  (p. 251,
Ace pb)  So either there's a major discrepancy here between the Ace pb and
other editions, or the whole "binding" theme is a non-issue (which, of
course, makes Marsch's remark about Victor's non-circumcision even more
irrelevant).

--Adam

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 08:09:45 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Adam Stephanides" <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
> course, makes Marsch's remark about Victor's non-circumcision even more

Whoops.

The problem is my Quartet edition, which has this misprint

       "they would *tie*, the two of them"

Problem solved, and apologies all round.

    hartshorn

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From: Michael Andre-Driussi <mantis at siriusfiction.com>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:21:37 +0000

No, hartshorn/Quartet are right (agreeing with Scribners hc), Ace is in
error (add that one to the "Many Pink Butterflies" instead of "Mary Pink
Butterflies" error).

Scribners hc:

"they would tie, the two of them" (227)

=mantis=

Sirius Fiction
booklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley
31 copies of "Snake's-hands" until OP!
http://www.siriusfiction.com/

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 May 2002 15:46:05 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Andre-Driussi" <mantis at siriusfiction.com>

> "they would tie, the two of them" (227)

Well, back where we were then.

Why "tie"?  And how/why is this specifically linked to being uncircumcised?

    hartshorn

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From: Adam Stephanides <adamsteph at earthlink.net>
Date: Wed, 22 May 2002 15:05:02 +0000

> Why "tie"?  And how/why is this specifically linked to being uncircumcised?

The OED gives as one meaning of "tie" for a dog and a bitch to be linked
during copulation.  But it's still strange.  Marsch is an anthropologist;
you'd expect him to have read about uncircumcised peoples, and to be aware
that "tying" doesn't happen.  And why does he anticipate being especially
enraged by seeing Victor and his girl "tied," as opposed to just having sex?

As for the significance of Victor's non-circumcision in itself, here's one
theory.  In anthropology, the Australian aborigines are known for rigorous
male initiation rites at puberty, which generally involve circumcision.  If
the same is true of the Free People, then Victor's non-circumcision might be
one reason he thinks of himself as a child.

--Adam

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