{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3219", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3219, "subject": "Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "messages": 15, "voices": 9, "first": "2002-05-06T15:56:03+00:00", "last": "2002-05-09T04:54:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-06T15:56:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In among all the serious discussion, I'd like to toss out something fun.\n\nNow and again in reading (and more often in rereading) texts Lupine, I find \nthe literary equivalent of an Easter egg in software, a joke (along the\nlines \nof Zelazny's infamous Shan-hitting fit, but far more subtle): something that\n\nyou only realize is a joke if you squint at it from the correct angle. None\nof these have made me faint, but I do not claim to be a strong man.\n\nPresumably, most of you have seen some of these also. I'd like to challenge\nas many of you as possible to post your favorite example. \n\n(In honesty, I'd like to collect them and cobble together an article \non Wolfe's odd sense of humor.)\n\nTo roll the ball, the following is my own personal favorite. It comes \nfrom NIGHTSIDE THE LONG SUN (p.120 of the original h/c edition), as \nSilk is looking down from the roof of Blood's house, before his first \nmeeting with Mucor:\n\n\t...the talus rolled into view. He froze until it had \n\tpassed. There was a chance, of course, that it had \n\tconcealed, upward- or rearward-directed eyes; Maytera \n\tMarble had once mentioned such features in connection \n\twith Maytera Rose. But that, too, seemed less than \n\tprobable.\n\nI presume you all know what Marble actually said about Rose..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "jason at jvoegele.com" }, "date": "2002-05-06T17:28:18+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now and again in reading (and more often in rereading) texts Lupine, I\nfind the literary equivalent of an Easter egg in software, a joke (along \nthe lines of Zelazny's infamous Shan-hitting fit, but far more subtle):\nsomething that you only realize is a joke if you squint at it from the\ncorrect angle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably, most of you have seen some of these also. I'd like to\nchallenge as many of you as possible to post your favorite example. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if it's intended as a joke, but one of my favorite \nsuch \"squinty\" moments is in ON BLUE'S WATERS when Horn tells us that there \nwas rumored to be a third book written about Silk (apart from Horn and \nNettle's book and the book written by Scleroderma). He tells us it was \nwritten by a man in Urbasecundus.\n\nUrbasecundus, of course, meaning \"Second City\". Do you know anybody who's \nwritten a book about Silk and that hails from Chicago, which is also called \nthe \"Second City\"?\n\nI'm also fond of the dig at Hartwell (I think?) at the end of EXODUS FROM \nTHE LONG SUN...the reference to \"Starcrosser's Landfall\".\n\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-05-06T19:57:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Dan'l wrote:\nPresumably, most of you have seen some of these also. I'd like to challenge\nas many of you as possible to post your favorite example." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't suppose it's really a joke, and it's not that subtle, but I've\nalways found it funny; it's one of Wolfe's little digs at the eggheads of\nacademe, from CASTLEVIEW (pp. 36-37). Lisa Solomon is talking about the\nfireplace:\n\n\"Do you know, I read just today that open fires don't actually heat a\nbuilding? It seems they draw in more cold air than they warm; just think of\nall those ignorant people who froze themselves to death, and never realized\nit, for thousands of years.\"\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-06T20:05:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't suppose it's really a joke, and it's not that subtle, but I've\nalways found it funny; it's one of Wolfe's little digs at the eggheads of\nacademe, from CASTLEVIEW (pp. 36-37). Lisa Solomon is talking about the\nfireplace:\n\n\"Do you know, I read just today that open fires don't actually heat a\nbuilding? It seems they draw in more cold air than they warm; just think\nof all those ignorant people who froze themselves to death, and never\nrealized it, for thousands of years.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Huh. And I took it as more of a dig at Lisa -- because she's right as\nfar as she goes, but Wolfe is enough of an engineer to know that \"they\ndraw in more cold air than they warm\" is actually true for a house with \nany kind of central heating ... having an open fire in one room of the\nhouse can actually way raise your heating bill. (The best solution is a \nsealed fireplace with a passive or active heat-return system, which we\nactually have in our house, but that's getting way off topic...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-05-07T07:08:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blattid wrote:\n\"Do you know, I read just today that open fires don't actually heat a\nbuilding? It seems they draw in more cold air than they warm; just think\nof all those ignorant people who froze themselves to death, and never\nrealized it, for thousands of years.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Huh. And I took it as more of a dig at Lisa -- because she's right as\nfar as she goes, but Wolfe is enough of an engineer to know that \"they\ndraw in more cold air than they warm\" is actually true for a house with\nany kind of central heating ... having an open fire in one room of the\nhouse can actually way raise your heating bill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That reminds me of the professor who, about thirty years ago, _proved_\nmathematically that the Apollo moon landings were a physical impossibility.\n:-)\n\nAnn Schindler was cold and wet. As she and Wrangler drove to the \"rambling\nfieldstone building\" where Lisa and the girls stayed, she imagined a\n\"red-hot pot-bellied stove in a bunkhouse\". When she entered the house, what\nshe found instead was \"a wide rustic room, one wall of which was mostly\nfireplace; it held a bigger, redder, hotter fire than Ann could ever have\nimagined\". Ann said she wanted to sit by the fireplace, which is when Lisa\nmade her comment.\n\nI have no doubt whatsoever that Wolfe was ridiculing the author of the\nassertion Lisa read about. I doubt seriously that that ranch house had any\nsort of central heating; and I know for a fact that all those \"ignorant\npeople who froze themselves to death, and never realized it, for thousands\nof years\" didn't. For uncounted generations all that kept people from\nfreezing to death in the winter _were_ the \"open fires\" in the hearths of\ntheir homes. I am even more certain of that than I am of Neil Armstrong.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nigel Price", "address": "nigel.a.price at virgin.net" }, "date": "2002-05-07T11:51:19+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blattid wrote:\nI presume you all know what Marble actually said about Rose..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You've got me uncertain now.\n\nI'd always assumed that Marble said something like, \"That Chem must have\neyes in the back of her head!\"\n\nOr did you think that a somewhat more robust sentiment had been expressed?\n\nNigel (busy trying to remember the funny bits, of which he knows there are\nmany although he cannot now recall a single one - he was very interested in\nthat business of the way open fires work, though)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-07T15:10:47+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I presume you all know what Marble actually said about Rose..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You've got me uncertain now.\n\nI'd always assumed that Marble said something like, \"That Chem must\nhave eyes in the back of her head!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, that's basically it -- though I was thinking of it a little\nmore straitly -- \"Never think Maytera doesn't see you -- she has \neyes in the back of her head.\" (And, of course, Rose isn't a chem,\nMarble is; Rose is a bio...)\n\n--D" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-07T15:47:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nBlattid wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"Do you know, I read just today that open fires don't actually heat a\nbuilding? It seems they draw in more cold air than they warm; just\nthink\nof all those ignorant people who froze themselves to death, and never\nrealized it, for thousands of years.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Huh. And I took it as more of a dig at Lisa -- because she's right as\nfar as she goes, but Wolfe is enough of an engineer to know that \"they\ndraw in more cold air than they warm\" is actually true for a house with\nany kind of central heating ... having an open fire in one room of the\nhouse can actually way raise your heating bill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That reminds me of the professor who, about thirty years ago, _proved_\nmathematically that the Apollo moon landings were a physical\nimpossibility.\n:-)\n\nAnn Schindler was cold and wet. As she and Wrangler drove to the\n\"rambling\nfieldstone building\" where Lisa and the girls stayed, she imagined a\n\"red-hot pot-bellied stove in a bunkhouse\". When she entered the house,\nwhat\nshe found instead was \"a wide rustic room, one wall of which was mostly\nfireplace; it held a bigger, redder, hotter fire than Ann could ever\nhave\nimagined\". Ann said she wanted to sit by the fireplace, which is when\nLisa\nmade her comment.\n\nI have no doubt whatsoever that Wolfe was ridiculing the author of the\nassertion Lisa read about. I doubt seriously that that ranch house had\nany\nsort of central heating; and I know for a fact that all those \"ignorant\npeople who froze themselves to death, and never realized it, for\nthousands\nof years\" didn't. For uncounted generations all that kept people from\nfreezing to death in the winter _were_ the \"open fires\" in the hearths\nof\ntheir homes. I am even more certain of that than I am of Neil Armstrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, but that's totally consistent with the statement that open\nfires cause a net loss of heat in otherwise heated buildings. Of\ncourse it's far better, when you're cold, to come into a building\nwith a fire in the fireplace than an unheated building, but the\nbuilding would be warmer (physically if not emotionally) if it had\na stove instead. And of course, Ann is right that the area around\nthe fireplace is the warmest part.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-07T19:03:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This one is hardly subtle, but I like it too much to miss the opportunity to\nquote it:\n\n\"Also he's big in aquarium supplies -- that's quite a small market\naltogether, but Ffoulkes is big in it, if you get what I mean.\" - Forlesen." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-07T19:06:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, _I_ don't get that one. Would someone explain? \n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Tony Ellis [mailto:LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk]\nSent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 12:03 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge\n\n\nThis one is hardly subtle, but I like it too much to miss the opportunity to\nquote it:\n\n\"Also he's big in aquarium supplies -- that's quite a small market\naltogether, but Ffoulkes is big in it, if you get what I mean.\" - Forlesen." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2002-05-07T19:51:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There appear to be at least three jokes in\n\"Under Hill\"; as it's brand new, I leave it\nto you all to find them.\n\nAnd thank you, Nick Gevers.\n\nMark Millman\n(Nacre)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-07T18:17:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apart from the obvious parady of Ralph 124C41+ in the villians' name, I\ncan't see any jokes. But is it not a notably Vancean story?\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Mark Millman\" \nTo: \nSent: Tuesday, May 07, 2002 8:51 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge\nThere appear to be at least three jokes in\n\"Under Hill\"; as it's brand new, I leave it\nto you all to find them.\n\nAnd thank you, Nick Gevers.\n\nMark Millman\n(Nacre)\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-07T21:53:35+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "POSSIBLE SPOILERS for \"Under Hill\" if you haven't read it yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nNacre counterchallenged:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There appear to be at least three jokes in\n\"Under Hill\"; as it's brand new, I leave it\nto you all to find them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's some pretty sad Chinese-name-jokes of the \nlevel of the infamous \"How Hi is a Chinaman\".\n\n(I'd have guess that \"Gifflet le Fils de Do\" was something \nsimilar but nothing came to mind and a quick search turned\nup this from the Prose Merlin:\n\n\tAnd Kay served at tables as was reson, and two yonge \n\tknyghtes of grete prowesse and were sones to two \n\tcasteleins -- that oon was cleped Lucas the Boteler, \n\tand that other Gifflet, the sone of Doo of Cardoell, \n\twhich hadde be maister forester to Uterpendragon. \n\nAnd he also turns up in Percivale and other old Arthurian\ntexts, so that's just a straightforward name reference.)\n\nI'd be willing to bet that there was something funny hiding\nhere:\n\n\tThe princess lowered her eyes in shame. \"There is \n\talso my chop - my seal, perhaps? Has this humble \n\tone committed some risible error, my lord?\"\n\nbut I'm darned if I can figure it out.\n\n\tmy name's 12BFW-CY-, by the way, and I come \n\tfrom the remote future.\n\nH'mmm. That's a Gernsbackian joke -- a reference to \"Ralph \n124C41+\" The \"+\" in Ralph's name was a reference to his \nexceptionally high intelligence, wasn't it? Not sure what \nto make of the mid-name -; possibly doubleyou minus cee would\nbe tee, so 12BFTY-. Not much better... \n\nAt any rate, looking at the story as a while, we see a smug,\nGernsbackian superscientist is being outwitted by a \"man of\nthe Dark Ages who show[s] a glimmer of intelligence,\" which \nI think is kind of nice. It's not one of Wolfe's masterpieces\nby a long shot, but I like it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-08T22:26:35+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nPOSSIBLE SPOILERS for \"Under Hill\" if you haven't read it yet.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nNacre counterchallenged:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There appear to be at least three jokes in\n\"Under Hill\"; as it's brand new, I leave it\nto you all to find them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I smiled at \"I like a man of spirit.\" \"And he likes you.\" Also at \"But\nanyone who rescues her can have her. The enchanter has promised her\nthat.\" (Sure it's not a threat?)\n\nGlossing \"morning star\", from a man who provided no explanation for\n\"contus\", might also qualify as a joke." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, there's some pretty sad Chinese-name-jokes of the \nlevel of the infamous \"How Hi is a Chinaman\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sad is right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I'd have guess that \"Gifflet le Fils de Do\" was something \nsimilar but nothing came to mind and a quick search turned\nup this from the Prose Merlin:\n\n\tAnd Kay served at tables as was reson, and two yonge \n\tknyghtes of grete prowesse and were sones to two \n\tcasteleins -- that oon was cleped Lucas the Boteler, \n\tand that other Gifflet, the sone of Doo of Cardoell, \n\twhich hadde be maister forester to Uterpendragon. \n\nAnd he also turns up in Percivale and other old Arthurian\ntexts, so that's just a straightforward name reference.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, those quick searches! I never heard of the Prose Merlin. Anyway,\nit's kind of a funny name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd be willing to bet that there was something funny hiding\nhere:\n\n\tThe princess lowered her eyes in shame. \"There is \n\talso my chop - my seal, perhaps? Has this humble \n\tone committed some risible error, my lord?\"\n\nbut I'm darned if I can figure it out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, she did make an error, from Sir Bradwen's point of view, but I can't\nsee why it's especially risible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\tmy name's 12BFW-CY-, by the way, and I come \n\tfrom the remote future.\n\nH'mmm. That's a Gernsbackian joke -- a reference to \"Ralph \n124C41+\" The \"+\" in Ralph's name was a reference to his \nexceptionally high intelligence, wasn't it? Not sure what \nto make of the mid-name -; possibly doubleyou minus cee would\nbe tee, so 12BFTY-. Not much better... " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One to be if double-you (i.e., you two) not see why not? Since you\nsuggested that that hyphen is a minus, maybe it means negative, meaning\nnot?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At any rate, looking at the story as a while, we see a smug,\nGernsbackian superscientist is being outwitted by a \"man of\nthe Dark Ages who show[s] a glimmer of intelligence,\" which \nI think is kind of nice. It's not one of Wolfe's masterpieces\nby a long shot, but I like it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't take a whole lot to outwit him. This seems like\nWolfe-writes-a-children's-story. I'm reminded of Delany's \"Prismatica\". \nBut possibly I'm missing something.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-05-09T04:54:49+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Lupine Humor: A Challenge", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, _I_ don't get that one. Would someone explain? " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Tony Ellis [mailto:LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk]\n\nThis one is hardly subtle, but I like it too much to miss the opportunity to\nquote it:\n\n\"Also he's big in aquarium supplies -- that's quite a small market\naltogether, but Ffoulkes is big in it, if you get what I mean.\" - Forlesen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tBig fish in a small pond.\n\n\n\tI'm not sure if it counts, but given the time of year it begins and the\npassage of time, \nTBOTNS can be read as an incredibly grandiose \"What I Did On My Summer\nVacation.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] } ] }