{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3226", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3226, "subject": "PEACE: Morryster's _Marvells of Science_", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-05-07T04:47:11+00:00", "last": "2002-05-10T19:58:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-07T04:47:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Morryster's _Marvells of Science_", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ten months ago, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nI was looking over the section where this book appears (211-12, Harper hc)\nand I have an observation and a question.\n\nFirst, the observation: the book is introduced with the sentences \"There\nwere several books on his table, and I picked one up. It was Morryster's\n_Marvells of Science_...\" (211) Now, this way of phrasing it strongly\nsuggests that Weer is already familiar with the author and title; otherwise,\nhe would say something like \"It was entitled _Marvells of Science_,\" by a\nman named Morryster. However, the book does not exist: it was invented by\nAmbrose Bierce in _The Devil's Dictionary_, and the author and title were\nborrowed by Lovecraft. The copy Weer picks up is one of Gold's forgeries\n(and since he finds it in Gold's office, we can dismiss the possibility that\n_Peace_ takes place in a universe in which _Marvells of Science_ does\nexist.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY (1911) have some reference to that title? In\nany event, it shows up, with a little quote, in Bierce's short story \"The\nMan and the Snake\" (1891). See here\nhttp://www.online-literature.com/bierce/174/\nYes, then Lovecraft used it later, but I've misplaced the note on which\nstory that was.\n\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Next, my question: where does the stuff on Heaven and Hell that Weer\nostensibly reads in _Marvells of Science_ come from? It doesn't sound like\nanything from either of the book's sources (and afaik, Lovecraft only\nmentions the title without describing the contents). And it doesn't sound\nlike one of Wolfe's own inventions to me. It sounds like the sort of thing\nthat might come from Swedenborg, though I'm no expert, and we know that\nSwedenborg was at least indirectly an influence on _Peace_. Can anybody\nverify or refute this?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The quote included in \"The Man and the Snake\" does not match the direct\nquote that A. D. Weer reads in the bookstore. (But the quote in the story\ndoes sound rather familiar--maybe it is somewhere else inside PEACE?)\nFurther research would be to check if Lovecraft created a quote that was\nused--this would be a nice \"double-decker\" forgery.\n\nThe indirect quote that Adam refers to is not included in the Bierce story,\nnor is it germane to that story, yet the story itself is rather germane\ntoward PEACE as a whole, or so it seems to me, and it also seems like the\nsort of story that Gene Wolfe loves to the point of emmulation.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nPEACE: a timeline WITH dates! Come see!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-07T15:25:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Morryster's _Marvells of Science_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nTen months ago, Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was looking over the section where this book appears (211-12, Harper\nhc)\nand I have an observation and a question.\n\nFirst, the observation: the book is introduced with the sentences\n\"There\nwere several books on his table, and I picked one up. It was\nMorryster's\n_Marvells of Science_...\" (211) Now, this way of phrasing it strongly\nsuggests that Weer is already familiar with the author and title;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "otherwise,\nhe would say something like \"It was entitled _Marvells of Science_,\" by\na\nman named Morryster. However, the book does not exist: it was invented\nby\nAmbrose Bierce in _The Devil's Dictionary_, and the author and title\nwere\nborrowed by Lovecraft. The copy Weer picks up is one of Gold's\nforgeries\n(and since he finds it in Gold's office, we can dismiss the possibility\nthat\n_Peace_ takes place in a universe in which _Marvells of Science_ does\nexist.)\n\nDoes THE DEVIL'S DICTIONARY (1911) have some reference to that title? In\nany event, it shows up, with a little quote, in Bierce's short story\n\"The\nMan and the Snake\" (1891). See here\nhttp://www.online-literature.com/bierce/174/\nYes, then Lovecraft used it later, but I've misplaced the note on which\nstory that was." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"The Festival\", according to the Invisible Library (which doesn't\nmention the Bierce story, though--I'll tell the Librarian about it).\nHow certain is it that the _Marvells of Science_ in _Peace_, which\nI'll get around to someday, is another of Gold's forgeries?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-07T22:56:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Morryster's _Marvells of Science_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nHow certain is it that the _Marvells of Science_ in _Peace_, which\nI'll get around to someday, is another of Gold's forgeries?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well hmmm. It seems as certain as his forgery of THE NECRONOMICON and his\nforgery of Kate's diary. As Adam Stephanides noted before, it is a big\npointer to the nature of Gold's bookstore as a place of books so rare as to\nbe impossible: the rising music which crescendos a few pages later around\nthe more famous and unspoken NECRONOMICON.\n\n(Still hunting for another source to that wonderful \"Venus di Milo\" story!\nSo haunting, since I all-but-swore that I'd seen it before, somewhere, just\nbefore reading PEACE . . . )\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nLexicon Urthus out of print!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-10T13:46:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Morryster's _Marvells of Science_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/7/02 10:25 AM, Jerry Friedman at jerry_friedman at yahoo.com wrote:\n\"The Festival\", according to the Invisible Library (which doesn't\nmention the Bierce story, though--I'll tell the Librarian about it)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oops--I hadn't noticed this. Sorry, didn't mean to be redundant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How certain is it that the _Marvells of Science_ in _Peace_, which\nI'll get around to someday, is another of Gold's forgeries?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that:\n\n1) neither the National Union Catalog (hundreds of thick volumes compiling\nthe card catalogs of the Library of Congress and many other libraries), the\nBritish Library Catalog, nor Google show any trace of the book's existence;\n\n2) all the other books named in connection with Gold are forgeries (I\nthink); and\n\n3) all the authors Bierce \"cites\" in the Devil's Dictionary seem to be his\ninventions,\n\nit's a pretty safe bet that it's a forgery. And there's no reason to think\nthat it isn't Gold's.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-10T19:58:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) PEACE: Morryster's _Marvells of Science_", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 5/7/02 10:25 AM, Jerry Friedman at jerry_friedman at yahoo.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"The Festival\", according to the Invisible Library (which doesn't\nmention the Bierce story, though--I'll tell the Librarian about it)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oops--I hadn't noticed this. Sorry, didn't mean to be redundant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How certain is it that the _Marvells of Science_ in _Peace_, which\nI'll get around to someday, is another of Gold's forgeries?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that:\n\n1) neither the National Union Catalog (hundreds of thick volumes\ncompiling\nthe card catalogs of the Library of Congress and many other libraries),\nthe\nBritish Library Catalog, nor Google show any trace of the book's\nexistence;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This wasn't the part I was worried about. I'm sorry if I put you\nto trouble I could have gone to myself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) all the other books named in connection with Gold are forgeries (I\nthink); and" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a better clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3) all the authors Bierce \"cites\" in the Devil's Dictionary seem to be\nhis\ninventions,\n\nit's a pretty safe bet that it's a forgery. And there's no reason to\nthink\nthat it isn't Gold's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks! So it's in the category of \"presumably\", not as certain as\nthat Blaithmaic wrote _Lives of the Seventeen Megatherians_, but\noverwhelmingly more likely than any other possibility. As you've\nprobably guessed, I'm going to let the Invisible Librarian know." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman" } ] } ] }