{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3248", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3248, "subject": "Liev's Postpostulate", "messages": 22, "voices": 9, "first": "2002-05-10T00:55:21+00:00", "last": "2002-05-23T19:36:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-10T00:55:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On p. 255 of the Ace edition, Victor in his cell writes \"I know who I\nbelieve the Free People to be: I call it Liev's Postpostulate\"; but he never\nsays what Liev's Postpostulate is. Somebody once suggested, iirc, that it\nwas \"the humans killed the abos.\" After reading the book again, I now think\nthis is only half the story. Veil's Hypothesis is \"the abos killed the\nhumans and took their places\"; so logically Liev's Postpostulate should be\n\"the humans killed the abos and took their places.\" That is, the people who\nnow call themselves the \"Free People,\" among whom are Victor's mother and\nVictor himself, are not the descendants of the original Annese. Rather,\nthey are descendants of French colonists who had given up \"civilization\" to\nlive in the \"back of beyond\" (as some North American colonists joined the\nIndians), and these descendants have come to believe that they are actually\nindigenous Annese. Victor shared this belief until sometime between\nMarsch's death and the writing of those words.\n\nIn addition to being logical, this interpretation ties in with Victor's\nremark just before he mentions Liev's Postpostulate: \"The question is not,\nas I once thought, how much the thoughts of the Shadow children influence\nreality; but how much our own do.\" (I admit I don't know how Mrs. Blount's\ninterview fits into this.) It also is the only way I can think of to\naccount for Victor's statement to Number Five: \"'The abos are gone.'\" (75)\nYou could argue that this is just Victor's way of rejecting Number Five's\ncharge that he is an abo; but if he believes the Free People are abos, then\nnot only does his statement to Victor contradict the story he tells his\ninterrogator, but it leaves him having done three years of fieldwork with\nnothing to show for it.\n\nSo Victor believes that the Free People are not Annese, but humans believing\nthemselves to be Annese. But is it true? I don't know, but I suggest it's\nquite possible.\n\nPro: It's certainly more plausible than either prehistoric waves of\ncolonization (in either direction) or genetically unrelated Annese who can\ninterbreed with humans.\n\nPro: For those into this sort of thing, \"Liev\" can be unpacked as \"unveil,\"\nthough I don't put too much weight on this argument.\n\nCon: Wolfe's interview, quoted by Borski. But it's clear that Victor is not\nactually a Shadow child; and if Wolfe mistakenly referred to an Annese as a\nShadow child, he could have mistakenly referred to a human believing himself\nAnnese as a Shadow child. And, as I said before, the interview was\ntwenty-six years after the books were published, so his memory may not be\ncompletely accurate.\n\n(It may seem that I'm being hypocritical, since I've declared myself an\nintentionalist. But I never said this meant that whatever an author says\nabout his or her work must be taken as gospel, which is obviously an\nuntenable position.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-10T03:05:52+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This theory would also account for the difficulty we've been having\npinning down how much manual dexterity the abos have. As much or as\nlittle as the person thinks an abo would have. If a pseudo-abo really\nwants to write or shoot or cook, he can convince himself that an abo could\ndo it, but with lousy handwriting or poor aim. And at the same time\nbelieve himself unable to use a shovel.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-10T07:24:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Straight\" \nThis theory would also account for the difficulty we've been having\npinning down how much manual dexterity the abos have. As much or as\nlittle as the person thinks an abo would have. If a pseudo-abo really\nwants to write or shoot or cook, he can convince himself that an abo could\ndo it, but with lousy handwriting or poor aim. And at the same time\nbelieve himself unable to use a shovel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a simple point. Abo lack of dexterity might be due to lack of\npractice, nothing else.\n\nThe abos have a largely tool-less culture. If they do come from\nprehistoric drifts, from early Starcrossers flung through Shadow Child space\nwarps and back in time, or from hapless humans sucked through Dreamspace\nfrom early Europe, it is quite possible that they would lose their\ntechnology entirely.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-10T13:46:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/10/02 2:24 AM, Andy Robertson at andywrobertson at clara.co.uk wrote:\nJust a simple point. Abo lack of dexterity might be due to lack of\npractice, nothing else.\n\nThe abos have a largely tool-less culture. If they do come from\nprehistoric drifts, from early Starcrossers flung through Shadow Child space\nwarps and back in time, or from hapless humans sucked through Dreamspace\nfrom early Europe, it is quite possible that they would lose their\ntechnology entirely." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This wouldn't account for Victor's \"inability\" to hold a pen correctly,\nthough, since he received the same instruction all the other children did.\n\nWere the Australian aborigines, or other hunter-gathererers, ever believed\nto be unable to use tools?\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-10T15:31:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry to seem at loggerheads with you again, Adam, but a few quibbles spring\nimmediately to mind:\n\nIf Victor thinks he is descended from French settlers gone native, why, when\nhe thinks no one is reading what he writes any more, does he cite Dollo's\nLaw as the reason for his bad penmanship? We can't be expected to believe\nthat the French all unevolved the ability to use tools in a few generations.\n\nHow come all the people we think of as Annese seem to have the ability to\nchange how they appear? Cassilla seems to have it, Victor's mother had it,\nand Victor writes that he has \"the same ability, though not to the extent\nshe did.\" I've never been able to come up with a satisfactory reason why the\ndescendants of prehistoric humans should have this ability either, but at\nleast they had the time period in which to evolve it. And why the green eyes\nthing?\n\n\n'Liev' implies a reversal of Veil's Postulate, it's true, but it's possible\nWolfe only used Liev so that he could work in the pun \"I am Liev and I have\nleft.\" 'Postpostulate' suggests, at least to me, something that goes\n_beyond_ Veil's Postulate, rather than reversing it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I admit I don't know how Mrs. Blount's\ninterview fits into this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mrs Blount doesn't just talk about the Annese or Shadow Children her father\nshot. She also says:\n\n\"When I was growing up those little French girls that had been too small to\nfight was growing up too, and weren't they the cutest things? They got most\nof the handsome boys, you know, and all of the rich ones. You could go to a\ndance in your prettiest dress, and one of those Frenchies would come in,\njust in rags, you know, but with a ribbon and a flower in her hair, and\nevery boy's head would turn.\"\n\nThat has always sounded to me like another example of the Annese ability to\nlook more attractive at will. When I read it and then flip back to the\npassage that sent me there -- \"I have read the interview with Mrs Blount - a\nhundred times when I was in the hills - and I know who I believe the Free\nPeople to be,\" -- the implication seems pretty strong that he means the Free\nPeople are, or are now, human-Annese half-breeds like himself. The 'French'\ngirls were either Annese or, which seems more likely to me, themselves the\nchildren of Annese-settler interbreeding.\n\nPossibly we're supposed to read the Mrs Blount passage as meaning that the\nlittle French girls are French settlers who went native and are now coming\nin from the cold again, but I can't really see how we or Victor are supposed\nto draw that conclusion from what is said." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-10T18:11:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Tony Ellis\" \nSorry to seem at loggerheads with you again, Adam, but a few quibbles\nspring\nimmediately to mind:\n\nIf Victor thinks he is descended from French settlers gone native, why,\nwhen\nhe thinks no one is reading what he writes any more, does he cite Dollo's\nLaw as the reason for his bad penmanship?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Note, Dollo's law is about degeneration: the way an evolutionary talent,\nonce lost, is never regained.\n\nThis tells us something Victor at any rate believes.\n\nThe abos once had human manual dexterity and then lost it. They lost it\n*genetically* - for some unknown reason - in the same way they gained their\nodd talents of mimicry.\n\nPossibly they were an ancient human colony or abductee group that went\nthrough a evolutionary bottleneck. Or possibly Victor merely believes\nthis.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-05-11T04:58:37+00:00", "subject": "re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Andy Robertson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Tony Ellis\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sorry to seem at loggerheads with you again, Adam, but a few quibbles\nspring\nimmediately to mind:\n\nIf Victor thinks he is descended from French settlers gone native, why,\nwhen\nhe thinks no one is reading what he writes any more, does he cite Dollo's\nLaw as the reason for his bad penmanship?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note, Dollo's law is about degeneration: the way an evolutionary talent,\nonce lost, is never regained.\n\nThis tells us something Victor at any rate believes.\n\nThe abos once had human manual dexterity and then lost it. They lost it\n*genetically* - for some unknown reason - in the same way they gained their\nodd talents of mimicry.\n\nPossibly they were an ancient human colony or abductee group that went\nthrough a evolutionary bottleneck. Or possibly Victor merely believes\nthis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Dollo's law is crap; it's violated by marine mammals, and moths that\nalight on trees in once-polluted areas." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-11T07:49:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" <" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Possibly they were an ancient human colony or abductee group that went\nthrough a evolutionary bottleneck. Or possibly Victor merely believes\nthis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Dollo's law is crap; it's violated by marine mammals, and moths that\nalight on trees in once-polluted areas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's not crap, but like most things about biology it is a rule rather\nthan a law. But of course this is significant for what it tells us about\nVictor's assumptions, not the ficticious real biology of Saint Anne\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-13T21:58:57+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" <\nPossibly they were an ancient human colony or abductee group that\nwent\nthrough a evolutionary bottleneck. Or possibly Victor merely\nbelieves\nthis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But Dollo's law is crap; it's violated by marine mammals, and moths\nthat\nalight on trees in once-polluted areas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, it's not crap, but like most things about biology it is a rule\nrather\nthan a law. But of course this is significant for what it tells us\nabout\nVictor's assumptions, not the ficticious real biology of Saint Anne" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, Victor could be telling us the story of his own writing\ncareer: for some reason he lost the opportunity to write the normal\nway, and once he learned to hold the pen the wrong way, he could\nnever regain the normal function.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-15T16:08:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson claims that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dollo's law is crap; it's violated by marine mammals, and \nmoths that alight on trees in once-polluted areas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...well, no; it isn't. \n\nIn the case of peppered moths, no lost organs are reappearing; \nthe a:A balance of certain alleles is shifting due to natural\n(or, I suppose, semi-artificial) selection. The \"dark\" genes\nhad always been present as a minority in the \"gene pool,\" became \na far more prominent proportion of the gene pool when industrial \npollution caused the trees they sit on to become darker in color, \nand once again became less common as pollution control allowed\nthe trees to regain their former light color. The basic papers\non this, by Kettlewell's and Haldane, are both easily available\nin the Oxford reader on \"Evolution,\" edited by Mark Ridley.\n\nIn the case of marine mammals, what has happened is that the\nlost organs have exactly failed to reappear -- all marine \nmammals still must come to the surface to breathe; no gills \nhave reappeared. And, while the modified fins we call legs have\nre-modified themselves to a more fin-like structure, this isn't\na case of anything lost reappearing. The only thing that might \nbe considered as a reappearance is the dorsal fin on some marine\nmammals; I don't know enough about how those evolved to give a\nlegitimate answer to this." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mark Millman", "address": "millman at heimdallr.dyndns.org" }, "date": "2002-05-15T17:47:07+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid,\n\nIn sharks and bony fish the dorsal fin is part of the\nskeleton, while the dorsal fins of cetaceans (and, for\nthat matter, of their reptile analogues the ichthyosaurs)\nare not. That fact alone is sufficient to demonstrate\nthat the cetacean dorsal fin is not a reappearance of a\npreviously lost organ.\n\nBut now we're straying off-topic; my apologies.\n\nMark Millman\n(Nacre)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, 15 May 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes (Blattid) wrote:\nJeff Wilson claims that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dollo's law is crap;\nit's violated by marine\nmammals, and moths that\nalight on trees in once-\npolluted areas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...well, no; it isn't.\n\n[snip re: peppered moths]\n\nIn the case of marine mammals, what has happened is\nthat the lost organs have exactly failed to reappear\n-- all marine mammals still must come to the surface\nto breathe; no gills have reappeared. And, while the\nmodified fins we call legs have re-modified themselves\nto a more fin-like structure, this isn't a case of\nanything lost reappearing. The only thing that might\nbe considered as a reappearance is the dorsal fin on\nsome marine mammals; I don't know enough about how\nthose evolved to give a legitimate answer to this.\n\n--Blattid" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-20T01:14:41+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/10/02 3:31 PM, Tony Ellis at LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk wrote:\nIf Victor thinks he is descended from French settlers gone native, why, when\nhe thinks no one is reading what he writes any more, does he cite Dollo's\nLaw as the reason for his bad penmanship?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I never bought the theory that Dollo's Law is a coded reference to either\nthe abo's shapeshifting or the prehistoric colonists' evolution. As Jerry\nFriedman suggested, he only means to say that having learned to write\nholding the pen the wrong way, he now cannot write holding it the right way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We can't be expected to believe\nthat the French all unevolved the ability to use tools in a few generations.\n\nHow come all the people we think of as Annese seem to have the ability to\nchange how they appear? Cassilla seems to have it" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I vaguely recall something like this being discussed, but don't recall any\nof the arguments for it. The only thing I can find which could even be\nthought to suggest that she is either Annese or can change her appearance is\nthe statement \"In the bright daylight he could see fine wrinkles near her\neyes; the girl was aging\" (267), and to me it seems far more likely that\nthis means no more than what it says." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Victor's mother had it,\nand Victor writes that he has \"the same ability, though not to the extent\nshe did.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That leaves only two people with the ability, and from the way Victor and\nhis father describe it, it doesn't seem beyond human capacities." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why the green eyes\nthing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know, but recall that Marsch had them too. I don't know if we can\nbe sure whether the Free People really all had green eyes, or whether that\nwas Victor's extrapolation from himself and his mother; but if they did, it\ncould have arisen from genetic drift (far more plausibly than descendants of\nhuman colonists losing the ability to lose tools)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I admit I don't know how Mrs. Blount's\ninterview fits into this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mrs Blount doesn't just talk about the Annese or Shadow Children her father\nshot. She also says:\n\n\"When I was growing up those little French girls that had been too small to\nfight was growing up too, and weren't they the cutest things? They got most\nof the handsome boys, you know, and all of the rich ones. You could go to a\ndance in your prettiest dress, and one of those Frenchies would come in,\njust in rags, you know, but with a ribbon and a flower in her hair, and\nevery boy's head would turn.\"\n\nThat has always sounded to me like another example of the Annese ability to\nlook more attractive at will." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When I read it and then flip back to the\npassage that sent me there -- \"I have read the interview with Mrs Blount - a\nhundred times when I was in the hills - and I know who I believe the Free\nPeople to be,\" -- the implication seems pretty strong that he means the Free\nPeople are, or are now, human-Annese half-breeds like himself. The 'French'\ngirls were either Annese or, which seems more likely to me, themselves the\nchildren of Annese-settler interbreeding." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if we're supposed to take the \"French\" girls to be Annese, I don't see\nhow it would follow that the Free People are human-Annese hybrids. It would\nbe the descendents of the English colonists and \"French\" girls--i. e.\ntoday's \"civilized\" settlers--who would be hybrids, not the Free People.\n\nA more plausible guess at the interview's significance for Victor is that\nthe difference between the settlers and the Free People is one of behavior,\nnot appearance or genetics. Mrs. Blount was in no position to know whether\nthe \"abos\" were really human or not; nor, presumably, was her father (unless\nhe had dissected one of them). The \"abos\" looked just like the French, and\nthe French were also poor and landless, but because they behaved like\nanimals (from the settlers' perspective), they were considered to be animals\nand treated as such.\n\nIf this is correct, it could explain something that had been bothering me:\nwhy Victor tells Number Five that the abos are all dead, but later in his\ncell states that he is an animal and doesn't really speak: it is his\n\"animal\" behavior, not his genes, that makes him an animal in his own eyes.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T06:03:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson claims that" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dollo's law is crap; it's violated by marine mammals, and \nmoths that alight on trees in once-polluted areas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...well, no; it isn't. \n\nIn the case of peppered moths, no lost organs are reappearing; \nthe a:A balance of certain alleles is shifting due to natural\n(or, I suppose, semi-artificial) selection. The \"dark\" genes\nhad always been present as a minority in the \"gene pool,\" became \na far more prominent proportion of the gene pool when industrial \npollution caused the trees they sit on to become darker in color, \nand once again became less common as pollution control allowed\nthe trees to regain their former light color. The basic papers\non this, by Kettlewell's and Haldane, are both easily available\nin the Oxford reader on \"Evolution,\" edited by Mark Ridley.\n\nIn the case of marine mammals, what has happened is that the\nlost organs have exactly failed to reappear -- all marine \nmammals still must come to the surface to breathe; no gills \nhave reappeared. And, while the modified fins we call legs have\nre-modified themselves to a more fin-like structure, this isn't\na case of anything lost reappearing. The only thing that might \nbe considered as a reappearance is the dorsal fin on some marine\nmammals; I don't know enough about how those evolved to give a\nlegitimate answer to this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that case, I sit corrected but I don't see the relevance; the\nfunction returns even if the anatomical detail doesn't. The Frenchmen\ndon't give the suspected abos a medical exam, they test their limbs'\nfunction. Human hand or polymorphed pseudopod, if it can make nets it\nought to be able to work a shovel." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-20T10:49:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nI never bought the theory that Dollo's Law is a coded reference to either\nthe abo's shapeshifting or the prehistoric colonists' evolution. As Jerry\nFriedman suggested, he only means to say that having learned to write\nholding the pen the wrong way, he now cannot write holding it the right\nway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then why not say that, using just those simple words? Why instead cite, at\nlength, a specifically evolutionary process?\n\nIn any case, this is the answer which Victor has already dismissed as \"an\nexplanation that does not explain,\" because it doesn't tell us why he was\nunable to write by holding the pen the right way in the first place. Wolfe\ngoes out of his way to show us that Victor was beaten until he bled for\ngetting it wrong: that's a pretty powerful incentive for getting something\nright if it is physically possible to do so.\n\nI find it hard to believe that, in a story where tool-use is of crucial\nsignificance, Wolfe has devoted a whole page to the phenomenon of Victor's\nbad handwriting, and topped it off with a paragraph-long definition of Dollo\n's Law, in italics yet, just to say \"Victor's poor handwriting was a bad\nhabit.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How come all the people we think of as Annese seem to have the ability to\nchange how they appear? Cassilla seems to have it" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I vaguely recall something like this being discussed, but don't recall any\nof the arguments for it. The only thing I can find which could even be\nthought to suggest that she is either Annese or can change her appearance\nis\nthe statement \"In the bright daylight he could see fine wrinkles near her\neyes; the girl was aging\" (267), and to me it seems far more likely that\nthis means no more than what it says." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a different story, perhaps. But in one where a key theme is\nspot-the-alien, and where we've already been given the example of Victor's\nsupposedly Annese mother making herself look older to avoid sleeping with\nmen she didn't like, it's a detail that assumes far greater significance." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-05-21T05:48:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam Stephanides quoted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/10/02 3:31 PM, Tony Ellis at LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Victor thinks he is descended from French settlers gone native, why,\nwhen\nhe thinks no one is reading what he writes any more, does he cite Dollo's\nLaw as the reason for his bad penmanship?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam then wrote:\nI never bought the theory that Dollo's Law is a coded reference to either\nthe abo's shapeshifting or the prehistoric colonists' evolution. As Jerry\nFriedman suggested, he only means to say that having learned to write\nholding the pen the wrong way, he now cannot write holding it the right\nway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What Jerry wrote was:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Indeed, Victor could be telling us the story of his own writing\ncareer: for some reason he lost the opportunity to write the normal\nway, and once he learned to hold the pen the wrong way, he could\nnever regain the normal function." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Victor never \"lost the opportunity to write the normal way\"; he had the\nopportunity and was even punished for not doing it the normal way. He didn't\ndo it the normal way because he _couldn't_. The \"normal way\" of writing\ninvolves using the opposable thumb to grip, support, and guide the pencil.\nWithout an opposable thumb, it is impossible to control the pencil while\nattempting to write in the normal way, resulting in \"weak and wiggling\nlines\", and that only by moving the pencil using the whole arm, rather than\nthe muscles of the hand. The best way that Victor found to hold the pencil\nwas to clamp it between his second and third fingers \"with my thumb quite\nfree to do whatever it wishes\".\n\nWolfe doesn't make many things any clearer than that. Victor is well aware\nthat it is his inability to control his thumb as a human does that is the\ncause of his poor penmanship. It is also why Dollo's Law was cited\nimmediately after relating his writing woes. Dollo's Law does not address\nrecalcitrance or bad habits; it addresses lost function and the inability to\nregain it. The Annese, though otherwise quite human, somehow lost the normal\nhuman usage of their thumbs. It's that simple.\n\nThe story of the cat bite affecting his ability to write well is just a\npiss-poor excuse for a scholar from Earth not being able to write worth a\ndamn; Victor needed some excuse for his poor handwriting once he assumed\nMarsch's identity. The real cause is the same as for all the other lack of\nmanual dexterity attributed to the Annese--their thumbs are all but useless.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-05-22T05:15:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Roy C. Lackey\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe doesn't make many things any clearer than that. Victor is well aware\nthat it is his inability to control his thumb as a human does that is the\ncause of his poor penmanship. It is also why Dollo's Law was cited\nimmediately after relating his writing woes. Dollo's Law does not address\nrecalcitrance or bad habits; it addresses lost function and the inability to\nregain it. The Annese, though otherwise quite human, somehow lost the normal\nhuman usage of their thumbs. It's that simple." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought we just worked out that Dollo's Law is =not= about function;\ndolphins swim just as good as fish if not better." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-05-22T07:12:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nWolfe doesn't make many things any clearer than that. Victor is well\naware\nthat it is his inability to control his thumb as a human does that is the\ncause of his poor penmanship. It is also why Dollo's Law was cited\nimmediately after relating his writing woes. Dollo's Law does not address\nrecalcitrance or bad habits; it addresses lost function and the inability\nto\nregain it. The Annese, though otherwise quite human, somehow lost the\nnormal\nhuman usage of their thumbs. It's that simple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought we just worked out that Dollo's Law is =not= about function;\ndolphins swim just as good as fish if not better." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"if the offspring return to a mode of life in which the vestigial organ had\nan important function, the organ does not return to its original state, but\nthe organism develops a substitute.\" (Ace, 231)\n\nI wasn't really debating Dollo's Law but, yes, it is about function. An\norgan which loses a function never regains that function. The organism may\ndevelop another organ, or adapt an existing organ to compensate for the lost\nfunctionality of the original organ, but once an organ loses a function it\nis lost to that organ forever. The ability of a mammal to return to the sea\nand thrive there does not contravene the law.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-05-23T05:29:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Roy C. Lackey\" \n\n Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wolfe doesn't make many things any clearer than that. Victor is well\naware\nthat it is his inability to control his thumb as a human does that is the\ncause of his poor penmanship. It is also why Dollo's Law was cited\nimmediately after relating his writing woes. Dollo's Law does not address\nrecalcitrance or bad habits; it addresses lost function and the inability\nto\nregain it. The Annese, though otherwise quite human, somehow lost the\nnormal\nhuman usage of their thumbs. It's that simple." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I thought we just worked out that Dollo's Law is =not= about function;\ndolphins swim just as good as fish if not better." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"if the offspring return to a mode of life in which the vestigial organ had\nan important function, the organ does not return to its original state, but\nthe organism develops a substitute.\" (Ace, 231)\n\nI wasn't really debating Dollo's Law but, yes, it is about function. An\norgan which loses a function never regains that function. The organism may\ndevelop another organ, or adapt an existing organ to compensate for the lost\nfunctionality of the original organ, but once an organ loses a function it\nis lost to that organ forever. The ability of a mammal to return to the sea\nand thrive there does not contravene the law." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mammal's return shows that the function can return, even if the\noriginal organ does not. The dolphin's dorsal serves in place of a\nfish's, even though the original bony structures are long gone. So why\ncan't a shapeshifting abo likewise manifest new appendages to do the\nwork of human hands it may have had long ago?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-05-23T07:04:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nI wasn't really debating Dollo's Law but, yes, it is about function. An\norgan which loses a function never regains that function. The organism\nmay\ndevelop another organ, or adapt an existing organ to compensate for the\nlost\nfunctionality of the original organ, but once an organ loses a function\nit\nis lost to that organ forever. The ability of a mammal to return to the\nsea\nand thrive there does not contravene the law." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The mammal's return shows that the function can return, even if the\noriginal organ does not. The dolphin's dorsal serves in place of a\nfish's, even though the original bony structures are long gone. So why\ncan't a shapeshifting abo likewise manifest new appendages to do the\nwork of human hands it may have had long ago?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given time (it's been less than 200 years since the French landing), and a\nnew need to handle tools, the abos might well evolve other means of handling\nthem. But, in terms of evolutionary time spans, the abos haven't had time to\nadapt, even if they needed to. Also, there is no evidence presented in the\ntext of abos actually being able to shapeshift. I suspect that if they\nreally could morph into another shape that their genetic makeup would be so\ndifferent from that of humans as to make interbreeding impossible.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-23T14:30:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/20/02 5:49 AM, Tony Ellis at LittleSense at necronomicon.co.uk wrote:\nWolfe\ngoes out of his way to show us that Victor was beaten until he bled for\ngetting it wrong: that's a pretty powerful incentive for getting something\nright if it is physically possible to do so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A psychological inability to do something can be just as real, and just as\nresistant to being overcome by force, as a physical inability." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find it hard to believe that, in a story where tool-use is of crucial\nsignificance, Wolfe has devoted a whole page to the phenomenon of Victor's\nbad handwriting, and topped it off with a paragraph-long definition of Dollo\n's Law, in italics yet, just to say \"Victor's poor handwriting was a bad\nhabit.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In fact Dollo's law refers not to organs that have lost their function, but\nto organs that have physically shrunk or disappeared. Presumably you aren't\ngoing to argue that the prehistoric colonists went through a stage when they\nhad tiny or no hands.\n\nI think you're right, though, that there must be a larger reason why Victor\ncites Dollo's law. I'd suggest that it's connected to his statements that\nhe is an animal and does not really speak: having raised (he thinks) as an\nanimal, he now cannot become a human, but can only imitate a human. Or\nperhaps at this point he still believes himself an aborigine. But in any\ncase, I don't think he's referring to the evolution of the Annese' hands." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I vaguely recall something like this being discussed, but don't recall any\nof the arguments for it. The only thing I can find which could even be\nthought to suggest that she is either Annese or can change her appearance\nis\nthe statement \"In the bright daylight he could see fine wrinkles near her\neyes; the girl was aging\" (267), and to me it seems far more likely that\nthis means no more than what it says." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In a different story, perhaps. But in one where a key theme is\nspot-the-alien" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's a key theme on this list; I'm not convinced it's a key theme in the\nbook itself. The only \"alien\" whom there's much evidence for is Victor; the\nother alien candidates have been extrapolated based on one or two tiny\ndetails." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and where we've already been given the example of Victor's\nsupposedly Annese mother making herself look older to avoid sleeping with\nmen she didn't like, it's a detail that assumes far greater significance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBut Cassilla looks worn after she's slept with two men, not before. If she\nwere able to make herself look unattractive at will, like Victor's mother,\nshe presumably wouldn't be exploited as much as she is.\n\nThe theme of slavery and exploitation is far more prominent in 5HC than is\n\"spot-the-alien,\" and my reading of the quote fits this theme very well,\nindicating that Cassilla is worn out by her abuse.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-23T19:36:17+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Roy C. Lackey wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given time (it's been less than 200 years since the French \nlanding), and a new need to handle tools, the abos might\nwell evolve other means of handling them. But, in terms of\nevolutionary time spans, the abos haven't had time to adapt,\neven if they needed to. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's be a bit more quantitative about this ... \n\n\"Evolutionary time\" isn't really measured in hours, days, or \nyears, but in a combination of generations, selection pressure, \nand rates of mutation, which can then be translated into a\ntimeframe. \n\nAssuming the abos to be humans or human-descended, and to have\nhuman generation times, 200 years is _at most_ about 15 generations \n... which would be insignificant even with high mutation rates and \nstrong selection pressure. The only way you could expect anything \nsignificant in 15 gens would be if the favorable mutation(s) were \nalready present in the population (which eliminates mutation rate\nentirely as a factor) _and_ the selection pressure was simply \noverwhelming.\n\nNow, on the hypothesis, it is quite possible that genes for manual \ndexterity of the tool-using variety would not have been entirely \nextincted in the abos. In fact, there is no plausible reason to \nassume that they would have been: it's hard to imagine evolutionary \npressures which would select _against_ manual dexterity. Then the \nbest case to be made for actual extinction would be a complete lack \nof selection in either direction, combined with \"neutral drift;\" \nwhich only becomes plausible if we assume a very small population \n... not actually all that improbable on the face of it ... \n\nSimilarly, if the \"shovel test\" shibboleth story is accepted as \ntrue and taken at face value, then there was in fact an overwhelming \npressure -- use a shovel or die! -- favoring tool-using dexterity. \n(This would be a clear case of artificial selection...)\n\nMaking matters somewhat more complicated, we're also probably \ntalking about several genes rather than one, and all of them would \nhave to be coselected in order for tool-using dexterity to reappear \nin any significant way, which greatly adds to the most-probable \ntimeframe...\n\n(This discussion, by the way, entirely ignores the question of \nadaptationism, which -- pace and RIP Steven Jay Gould -- I would \njust as soon ignore.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, there is no evidence presented in the text of abos \nactually being able to shapeshift. I suspect that if they\nreally could morph into another shape that their genetic \nmakeup would be so different from that of humans as to make\ninterbreeding impossible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'd think so, wouldn't you? But in a universe where you can\ngain a person's memories by eating his brains, or her personality\nby drinking her blood, well. Besides, if we can accept a crossing \nwith cuproglobous Vulcans... well... It's probably best to just\nassume that the abos _are_ human-descended. Probably from a colony \nplanted during the Monarchal age, long before the New Sun came and \ncreated the continents we know today. 8*)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "littlesense at necronomicon.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-23T17:40:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Liev's Postpostulate", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Stephanides wrote:\nI think you're right, though, that there must be a larger reason why Victor\ncites Dollo's law. I'd suggest that it's connected to his statements that\nhe is an animal and does not really speak: having raised (he thinks) as an\nanimal, he now cannot become a human, but can only imitate a human." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's Nurture. The law he is citing concerns Nature, or heredity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But in any\ncase, I don't think he's referring to the evolution of the Annese' hands." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither do I. He's talking about why he could never write when he held a\npen properly. I think he is either citing Dollo's Law as an analogy for what\nhas happened, i.e.: 'just as an organ can atrophy during evolution, so can a\nhigher, human, capability', or the 'organ' he is thinking of is the human\nbrain (or some tool-coordinating part thereof).\n\nEither way, having spent the best part of a page begging the question 'why\ncan't I write when I hold a pen conventionally?' Victor concludes with a law\nwhich specifically concerns evolution.\n\n\nOf the spot-the-alien theme:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's a key theme on this list; I'm not convinced it's a key theme in the\nbook itself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the story we are discussing it is precisely what Marsch has come to St\nAnne to do." } ] } ] }