{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3255", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3255, "subject": "Base 9 on the Whorl?", "messages": 11, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-05-11T18:07:43+00:00", "last": "2002-05-15T20:07:38+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-11T18:07:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In _Nightside the Long Sun_, on p. 29, Wolfe has Maytera Marble presiding\nover a mathematics lesson, \"watching the children take nineteen from\ntwenty-nine and get nine, add seven and seventeen and get twenty-three.\"\nThis, however, is only possible in a base 9 numbering system, and a strange\none at that, since a conventional base 9 system would only include the\ndigits 0 to 8 (there should thus no 9, 19, or 29).\n\nThe following questions therefore ensue:\n\nSince the number 9 is present, are we to assume that one of the other\nnumbers has been retired? (If so, it's not evidenced in the Seal of Pas,\nwhich contains all ten digits from 0 - 9. But could these sequences be\nartifacts of the pre-launch numbering system?)\n\nEqually possible, I suppose, is the notion that the Whorl, like the ancient\nRomans, uses no 0 --meaning that the sequence after the first and second\nenneads runs ...8, 9, 11, 12... and 18, 19, 21, 22. But can this be\nsupported by text citings: i.e., do the numbers 10, 20, 30, etc., occur\nanywhere in the narrative?\n\nAlso, if we accept the validity of the base 9 system (doubtless enacted by\nthe Whorl gods to reinforce their sanctity, just as Pas's children have\nco-opted the days of the week), how does this change the facts, figures and\nchronology of the Long and Short Sun books--from ages of the characters to\nlengths of the year--or even, say, the hypothetical distance between Blue\nand Green at apogee and perigee?\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-11T18:25:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" \nTo: \nSent: Saturday, May 11, 2002 7:07 PM\nSubject: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?\nIn _Nightside the Long Sun_, on p. 29, Wolfe has Maytera Marble presiding\nover a mathematics lesson, \"watching the children take nineteen from\ntwenty-nine and get nine, add seven and seventeen and get twenty-three.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh\n\nEither:\n\n1) They are actually from PLANET ZOG\n\nhttp://home.clara.net/andywrobertson/zogcount.html\n\nOr \n\n2) The children are in their childish way making mistakes.\n\n\n\nBy the way 7 + 17 = 25 in base 9\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-12T06:54:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hartshorn having attempted to throttle my base 9 theory thusly:\n\n\"The children are in their childish way making mistakes.\"\n\n\"By the way 7 + 17 = 25 in base 9\"\n\nYes. But if indeed the children are making mistakes, they are making the\nless likely one. 29 - 19 in base 10 is almost impossible to get wrong--a\nlike number minus another like number has to be zero--it's about the easiest\ncalculation you can make and among the first we learn as\nchildren--especially since we have ten fingers and ten toes to help abacus\nour solution. But a calculation in base 9 of 7 + 17 is much more difficult,\neven for adults; you need to figure out (or memorize by rote) that the\nnumber 17 only contains 16 integers (and yes I know in base 9 the number 17\ncontains by definition 17 integers, but you know what I mean), add the 7 +\n16 and get 23, then readjust to compensate out of base 10 (as I did not) for\nthe missing 10 and 20 in the final tallying. Plus as in base 10 there may be\nspecial \"rules\" of 9 (e.g., any large number whose individual numbers add up\nto nine or a number that can be reduced to nine is divisible by nine), only\nin this case the rule would take on additional religious significance,\nsomething akin to \"In this column here, children, like minus like always\nequals nine--because as we know the Nine can never truly be reduced. Bless\nPas, Echidna, and their children.\"\n\nI'll also bet that if you ask first graders to subtract 19 from 29, they\nwill almost always get it right;\nwhereas if you ask most adults to add 7 + 17 in base 9, they will frequently\nget it wrong.\n\nIn other words I stand by my original premise: is it possible base 9 is\nbeing used on the Whorl?\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kjm at panix.com" }, "date": "2002-05-12T07:11:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:54 AM 5/12/02, Robert wrote:\nYes. But if indeed the children are making mistakes, they are making the\nless likely one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are, in fact, making mistakes no matter what base the calculations are \nin. You are asking us to assume that they're getting some of it correct and \nsome of it wrong in one unlikely and terrifically precise way to prove a \npoint for which there is no other support." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Kevin J. Maroney | kjm at panix.com | Games are my entire waking life\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-12T08:05:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" \nYes. But if indeed the children are making mistakes, they are making the\nless likely one. 29 - 19 in base 10 is almost impossible to get wrong--" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is 10 in any base whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "our solution. But a calculation in base 9 of 7 + 17 is much more\ndifficult,\neven for adults; you need to figure out (or memorize by rote) that the\nnumber 17 only contains 16 integers" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no,no. All you need to know is that 7+7 = 15. You put 5 down and\ncarry 1 making 25.\n\nIt's a fascinating idea, Robert, but there is no evidence for it.\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n(I did teach my kids base 9 - as a mental exercise for them)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-14T14:22:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this has been pretty well refuted, but oh, how I wish it were\ntrue. I really believed it for a minute. It seemed like such a Wolfean\nidea, him being an engineer and all, and the idea of it being subtly woven\ninto all the books as an easter egg is fabulous, and it seems like the\nsort of thing Pas would do.\n\nDon't tell Wolfe. He'll probably kick himself for not thinking of it.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-14T21:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum writing:" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-14T21:13:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: \"Robert Borski\" \n Doubtless I've bolixed up the math" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "again and hartshorn will correct me, or someone else will suggest a much\nmore practical reason for why Wolfe chose these specific two numbers. But\nI\nthought at least I'd mention it now.\n\nRobert Borski" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I haven't read the story, alas. But if they are using base 9, then they\nwould not convert back to base 10 to tell the story for us." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-14T21:13:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How I wish it were true as well!!\n\n hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kevin J. Maroney", "address": "kjm at panix.com" }, "date": "2002-05-15T04:04:39+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:22 AM 5/14/02, Michael Straight wrote:\nI think this has been pretty well refuted, but oh, how I wish it were\ntrue. I really believed it for a minute. It seemed like such a Wolfean\nidea, him being an engineer and all, and the idea of it being subtly woven\ninto all the books as an easter egg is fabulous, and it seems like the\nsort of thing Pas would do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe is enough of an engineer that he dislikes hugely impractical ideas. \nPas might want to impose base 9 on the inhabitants of the Whorl, but Gene \nWolfe wouldn't let him. :-)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Kevin J. Maroney | kjm at panix.com | Games are my entire waking life\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-15T20:07:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Base 9 on the Whorl?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Robert Borski wrote:\nRostrum writing:\n\n true.\n\nMe too. (Sniff.)\n\n< I really believed it for a minute. It seemed like such a Wolfean idea,\nhim\nbeing an engineer and all, and the idea of it being subtly woven into\nall\nthe books as an easter egg is fabulous, and it seems like the sort of\nthing\nPas would do.\n\nWhen I first posted my base 9 supposition, I couldn't remember the other\npassage which I thought supported my theory. Several days later I have.\nIt's\nin THE CROW anthology, Wolfe's story being \"The Night Chough.\"\n\nIn an unnamed town on Blue (though the names are Vironese), and after a\nviolent thunderstorm (apparently spawned by the looming conjunction with\nGreen), the young man known as Starling, accompanied by Oreb, is\nsearching\nfor the killers of his girlfriend Lily. The following passage then\noccurs\n(p. 68):\n\n**********************\n\"Bad man. Go where? Bad man!\"\n\"There's one,\" the young man whispered, pointing. Through the\ntwenty-second\nwindow--or perhaps it was the forty-third--could be seen three men and a\nwoman seated around a rough table on which stood three dark bottles and\nfive\ncheap wineglasses among scattered playing cards.\n**********************\n\nNow what struck me as odd here was the either/or specificity of these\nnumbers. How could a window be either the 22 or the 43?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nOne possibility is that Starling can't tell whether adjacent\nlights are nearby windows or two panes of a single window. So if\n1L represents the left pane of window 1, here are the two possible\nnumbering schemes.\n\n1L 1R 2L 2R 3L 3R 4L 4R ... 22L 22R\n1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 ... 43 44\n\nTo convince yourself that I didn't get out of alignment in my\nellipses, note that \"nR\" is the same as \"2n\".\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }