{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3267", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3267, "subject": "Vancean influence on Wolfe", "messages": 12, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-05-20T17:57:47+00:00", "last": "2002-05-21T02:03:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T17:57:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid wrote:\nAnd that, really, is the See Below. For me, at least, the\nstories in TDE are very much individual stories. There are\nlinks, characters from one appear in another, but they are,\nI think, less unified than (say) Leiber's yarns of Fafhrd\nand the Gray Mouser. Episodes from a single and singular\nfuture world, but not, to me, producing anything larger as\na group than the sum of the parts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would not argue too strenously with you. If you want to see Gene Wolfe's\ntake on TDE, see his essay \"The Living Earth\" in JACK VANCE: CRITICAL\nAPPRECIATIONS AND A BIBLIOGRAPHY." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So for the more dedicated Vanceans on the list, I suppose\nthe obvious question would be whether I, as a rather casual\nreader, am missing anything here? This book is the one most\noften cited when recommending Vance to a Wolfe fan; other\nthan the gross-scale influence on New Sun, the fundamental\nidea (which, actually, wasn't entirely new here either) of\nthis incredibly ancient Earth, is there something deeper?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What Andy Robertson said. In addition, I think it is important to isolate\nTDE from the other Vancean \"Dying Earth\" novels: TDE has an \"earnest\"\nquality, maybe something like sombre-mode Dunsany, that is burlesqued in\nthe other novels in a way closer to that of joking-mode Clark Ashton Smith\n(as opposed to decadent-mode, which is the voice CAS used in most of his\nZothique stories).\n\nThe isolation of TDE could be extended further, to separate it from nearly\nall of Vance's work--it really is different. But I've read nearly 100% of\nVance's fiction (I haven't read a few of the mysteries because I cannot\nafford them--oh yes, Vance wrote mysteries, too. Even won an award.) and I\nmay be forgetting more than that.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T18:11:36+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In addition, I think it is important to isolate TDE from\nthe other Vancean \"Dying Earth\" novels: TDE has an\n\"earnest\" quality, maybe something like sombre-mode Dunsany, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bingbingbingbingbing! I found myself thinking \"Dunsanean\" (or,\noccasionally, less flattering: \"Bad imitation Dunsany\") over\nand over again while going through TDE -- especially the Dunsany\nof \"The Castle of the Gnolls\" and the story of \"Chu-Bu and \nSheemish.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that is burlesqued in the other novels in a way closer to that\nof joking-mode Clark Ashton Smith (as opposed to decadent-mode,\nwhich is the voice CAS used in most of his Zothique stories)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(I really need to read those sometime...)\n\nSo are the other Dying Earth novels, uh, better? Or to put it\ndifferently: do they have more of the gentle irony I tend to\nassociate with Vance?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The isolation of TDE could be extended further, to separate \nit from nearly all of Vance's work--it really is different. \nBut I've read nearly 100% of Vance's fiction (I haven't read\na few of the mysteries because I cannot afford them--oh yes,\nVance wrote mysteries, too. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to recall he's also one of the various SF writers who \nstepped in pseudonymously during \"Ellery Queen\"'s long blocked\nperiod. I know for certain that Ted Sturgeon and Avram Davidson \ndid." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-05-20T18:27:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis wrote:\n\n TDE has an \"earnest\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "quality, maybe something like sombre-mode Dunsany, that is burlesqued in\nthe other novels in a way closer to that of joking-mode Clark Ashton Smith\n(as opposed to decadent-mode, which is the voice CAS used in most of his\nZothique stories)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well put. Vance in general is a Mozart to Wolfe's Bach, \nstylistically; but TDE's somber, almost tragic, ambience may have had a bit \nof influence on Severian's own style.\n\nNut-ria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T18:21:48+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid wrote:\nSo are the other Dying Earth novels, uh, better? Or to put it\ndifferently: do they have more of the gentle irony I tend to\nassociate with Vance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. I'm sticking on that \"gentle\" bit . . . :)\n\nSeriously, Cugel the Clever is a ribald rogue of the picaresque school, and\nRhialto's mages are . . . words escape me. The other books are fun reads,\nbut if TDE is like LOTR, then the other novels are rather pythonesque in\ncomparison." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I seem to recall he's also one of the various SF writers who\nstepped in pseudonymously during \"Ellery Queen\"'s long blocked\nperiod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes indeed: three, iirc. One of them is very good; one is screamingly good\nuntil it completely blows out (alas!); the other one is okay, but still\nbetter imho than one of the ones published under his own name.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nLexicon Urthus out of print!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "jason at jvoegele.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T18:30:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\nVance in general is a Mozart to Wolfe's Bach, stylistically;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Care to expand on that? It rings true to me, but I'm not sure why. :) \nPerhaps just because Wolfe's writing is quite fugal in nature? Is there a \nquality judgement in that statement?\n\nThanks,\nJason Voegele" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T18:35:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In response to my question..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "do they have more of the gentle irony I tend to\nassociate with Vance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis commented:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm. I'm sticking on that \"gentle\" bit . . . :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah. Well, that's a matter of degree, I suppose ... Vancean\nirony, at least in what I've read, is in fact often quite\nstrong, but I don't recall ever thinking of it as vicious\nthe way, say, Malzberg's or Vonnegut's so often is. Or Twain's,\nfor that matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "if TDE is like LOTR, then the other novels are rather \npythonesque in comparison." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would never in a godzillion years have occurred to me to\ncompare TDE to LOTR. But the word \"pythonesque\" will certainly\nhave me looking for these in the foreseeable future. Thanks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-20T18:46:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nTo: \nIn addition, I think it is important to isolate TDE from\nthe other Vancean \"Dying Earth\" novels: TDE has an\n\"earnest\" quality, maybe something like sombre-mode Dunsany," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bingbingbingbingbing! I found myself thinking \"Dunsanean\" (or,\noccasionally, less flattering: \"Bad imitation Dunsany\") over\nand over again while going through TDE" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but - TDE really is one of those original, once-of-a-kind, novels. It\nseems imitative now only because it has been imitated so often.\n\nFor example, there is the matter of Role Playing Games.\n\nThe entire treatment of magic in RPGs derives from THE DYING EARTH - the\nbasic idea that a magician may compress just so many spells into his mind,\nand no more. This was worked out in the original Dungeons & Dragons games\nand its influence *since* then has spread everywhere, to fantasy films, to\nhorror, and of course back into writing.\n\nRPGs are low, of course, but they can be fun :-)\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-05-20T19:37:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I seem to recall he's also one of the various SF writers who\nstepped in pseudonymously during \"Ellery Queen\"'s long blocked\nperiod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Four Johns\nThe Madman Theory\nA Room to Die In\n\n- Nutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T19:18:24+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blattid quoted and wrote:\nHmmm. I'm sticking on that \"gentle\" bit . . . :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah. Well, that's a matter of degree, I suppose ... Vancean\nirony, at least in what I've read, is in fact often quite\nstrong, but I don't recall ever thinking of it as vicious\nthe way, say, Malzberg's or Vonnegut's so often is. Or Twain's,\nfor that matter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, gentle vs. vicious. Right--\"gentle\"! (I was thinking gentle as\nsubtle, underplayed, etc. All of which is also part of Vance's range . . .\nbut the novels in question are a tad more broad and farce-ful.) I can't\nthink of an example of Vancean irony getting vicious.\n\nCAS and Dunsany also have their joking sides.\n\nAnyway, to be clear--what you are looking for is:\n\n1. THE EYES OF THE OVERWORLD (Cugal's first appearance)\n2. CUGAL'S SAGA\n3. RHIALTO THE MARVELLOUS [sic]\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-05-20T19:43:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 02:30 PM 5/20/2002 -0400, you wrote:\nNutria wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Vance in general is a Mozart to Wolfe's Bach, stylistically;" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Care to expand on that? It rings true to me, but I'm not sure why. :)\nPerhaps just because Wolfe's writing is quite fugal in nature? Is there a\nquality judgement in that statement?\n\nThanks,\nJason Voegele" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " 'Twas just a thought. Mozart is transparent compared with Bach's \ndensity. Mozart is more sunny; Bach more serious. Mozart more \nstraightforward; Bach more complex.\n The comparison works for me and you; maybe not for everyone here.\n Not a quality judgment. Two different geniuses. I love Vance. I'm \na subscriber to the Compleat Vance.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-20T20:39:42+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nIn addition, I think it is important to isolate TDE from\nthe other Vancean \"Dying Earth\" novels: TDE has an\n\"earnest\" quality, maybe something like sombre-mode Dunsany, " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Bingbingbingbingbing! I found myself thinking \"Dunsanean\" (or,\noccasionally, less flattering: \"Bad imitation Dunsany\") over\nand over again while going through TDE -- especially the Dunsany\nof \"The Castle of the Gnolls\" and the story of \"Chu-Bu and \nSheemish.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "that is burlesqued in the other novels in a way closer to that\nof joking-mode Clark Ashton Smith (as opposed to decadent-mode,\nwhich is the voice CAS used in most of his Zothique stories)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I really need to read those sometime...)\n\nSo are the other Dying Earth novels, uh, better? Or to put it\ndifferently: do they have more of the gentle irony I tend to\nassociate with Vance?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I feel about them the way people who dislike BotNS feel about *it*:\na thoroughly unsympathetic character goes through one pointless\nepisode after another. There was enough invention (I certainly\ncan't criticize Vance on that score!), and of course the questions\nof whether Cugel and Rhialto would ultimately succeed, to keep me\nreading.\n\nIt's sort of like BotNS without the aspects I like, or Pratchett's\nRincewind novels without the jokes (though I think admirers of\nVance find the later three Dying Earth novels funny).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-21T02:03:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Vancean influence on Wolfe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "on 5/20/02 1:21 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com wrote:\nI seem to recall he's also one of the various SF writers who\nstepped in pseudonymously during \"Ellery Queen\"'s long blocked\nperiod." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes indeed: three, iirc. One of them is very good; one is screamingly good\nuntil it completely blows out (alas!); the other one is okay, but still\nbetter imho than one of the ones published under his own name." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And Nutria wrote:\nThe Four Johns\nThe Madman Theory\nA Room to Die In" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Iirc, these are all from the series of paperback tough-guy mysteries\npublished under Queen's name, but without Ellery as the detective.\n\nhttp://www.hycyber.com/MYST/queen_ellery.html lists FACE TO FACE, which iirc\nis a \"regular\" Ellery Queen novel, as \"ghostwritten by Jack Vance?\", though\nif you follow the link to \"Novels Ghostwritten by Others,\" the attribution\nis repeated without the question mark.\n\nIn any case, mantis, which of your evaluations correspond to which books?\n\n--Adam " } ] } ] }