{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3275", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3275, "subject": "Why I don't like TBOTSS", "messages": 15, "voices": 9, "first": "2002-05-23T14:30:46+00:00", "last": "2002-05-31T20:36:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-23T14:30:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not just the treatment of the inhumi; the more I think about TBOTSS,\nthe less I like it. To be sure, there's a lot of good stuff in it, and I\nmyself have tried to make excuses for it in the past. But overall, it's a\nmess: full of \"mysteries\" which look more and more like sloppy writing the\nmore they're discussed, ill-digested pulp trappings, and long, tedious\ndescriptions of battles and politics.\n\nAnd the more I think about it, the more Wolfe's failure to depict Horn's\nrelationship with Krait seems like a cop-out. This relationship is, or\nshould be, at the heart of the book: it mirrors Horn's unhappy relationship\nwith Sinew, and it explains why he befriends Jahlee and other inhumi. But\ninstead of seeing how Horn comes to think of Krait as a son, we get snippets\nof pulp action and a melodramatic death scene. Regardless of what Wolfe's\nactual motives were, it feels like he didn't show the developing\nrelationship because he couldn't figure out how to make it plausible. If\n(as I once suggested) Wolfe was attempting, as with PEACE, to give us a\nnarrator whose \"story\" lies in what he fails to tell us, he has failed.\nWhile Weer emerges as a convincing character, even though virtually every\nscene we'd expect in a \"life story\" is missing, for me Horn never coheres as\na character.\n\nI'm not suggesting, I hasten to add, that those who like it are deceiving\nthemselves or others. But I don't understand the seeming consensus that\nTBOTSS is a masterpiece, and equal to TBOTNS. To me, TBOTSS seems more like\na parody of everything that made TBOTNS great.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-31T20:36:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Stephanides\" \nI'm not suggesting, I hasten to add, that those who like it are deceiving\nthemselves or others. But I don't understand the seeming consensus that\nTBOTSS is a masterpiece, and equal to TBOTNS. To me, TBOTSS seems more\nlike\na parody of everything that made TBOTNS great." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you sure it is not that you are seeing what is really in TBOTSS and are\nnow disliking it?\n\nIn my opinion TBOTSS is a far more serious book.\n\nIt is about real, and therefore limited, human beings; not a demigod.\n\nIt is about grown-ups - people who have families and children; not a\nfornicating psychic adolescent.\n\nIt is about communities, and the price and failure of building a community;\nnot about a roving free agent.\n\n\nIn many respects it is dumber, duller. But that is the price of it being\nmore intimate and rougher-grained.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-23T19:58:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 23 May 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:\nAnd the more I think about it, the more Wolfe's failure to depict Horn's\nrelationship with Krait seems like a cop-out. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Regardless of what Wolfe's\nactual motives were, it feels like he didn't show the developing\nrelationship because he couldn't figure out how to make it plausible. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or maybe he edited it out because he wanted to show us the similar story\nof how Jahlee became Silkhorn's daughter, and having both seemed too\nrepetitive.\n\nOf course it's not the same, since Silkhorn isn't just Horn, and Horn\nloving Krait is probably even more of a stretch than Silkhorn loving\nJahlee.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Timothy Reilly", "address": "treilly at ozemail.com.au" }, "date": "2002-05-24T00:37:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Adam Stephanides\" \nI'm not suggesting, I hasten to add, that those who like > it are\ndeceiving themselves or others. But I don't understand the seeming\nconsensus that\n TBOTSS is a masterpiece, and equal to TBOTNS. To me, TBOTSS seems more\nlike a parody of everything that made TBOTNS great." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam, there's no such consensus. While I liked OBW I had grave doubts after\nIGJ, and these were confirmed by RTTW. I and many others expressed in\ndetail why we did not think TBSS was successful long ago. I don't take part\nin the ongoing debates about details of TBSS now because I don't like it\nenough to be bothered, not because I have changed my mind.\n\nTim" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-24T14:30:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/31/02 3:36 PM, Andy Robertson at andywrobertson at clara.co.uk wrote:\nIn my opinion TBOTSS is a far more serious book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure the contrast between the two is as great as you make out; see\nbelow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is about real, and therefore limited, human beings; not a demigod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While Horn may not have the miraculous powers of Sev (though he has weird\ntalents of his own), I think that psychologically Sev is just as human as\nHorn, if not more so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is about grown-ups - people who have families and children; not a\nfornicating psychic adolescent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the \"fornicating\" part certainly applies to Horn. And while he has a\nfamily and children, he's rarely depicted as a family man. We see very\nlittle of Nettle, and Horn doesn't behave much like a father to Hide and\nHoof when he's traveling with them. And he doesn't give much thought to his\nfamily on his travels, iirc, aside from his obsession with Sinew, and\nthrowaway remarks about how he misses Nettle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is about communities, and the price and failure of building a community;\nnot about a roving free agent." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, while Horn passes through communities, as did Sev, he is not\ncommitted to any of them; apart from his unwilling Rajandom, he basically is\na \"roving free agent.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In many respects it is dumber, duller. But that is the price of it being\nmore intimate and rougher-grained." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure why the one should follow from the other. There are certainly\ntons of books about ordinary humans, families and communities which are\nneither dumb nor dull.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-25T14:42:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/23/02 7:37 PM, Timothy Reilly at treilly at ozemail.com.au wrote:\nAdam, there's no such consensus. While I liked OBW I had grave doubts after\nIGJ, and these were confirmed by RTTW. I and many others expressed in\ndetail why we did not think TBSS was successful long ago. I don't take part\nin the ongoing debates about details of TBSS now because I don't like it\nenough to be bothered, not because I have changed my mind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did remember that there were people who disliked TBOTSS. It was (and is)\nmy impression that they are in the minority, at least among those who have\nspoken up on this list. And among professional reviewers, I don't recall\nreading a negative review. (It was Clute's enthusiastic mention of RTTW in\nhis year-end wrap-up in LOCUS that provoked me to post.)\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Lloyd", "address": "allan-lloyd at lineone.net" }, "date": "2002-05-25T21:04:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Re: [urth] Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Adam,\n Way back in the archives there is a post from me expressing deep dissatisfaction with the Short Sun books, and because of this, I too have not been taking much part in the discussion of the books.\n\n My main point was that in the final book, I expected some sort of resolution to some of the problems and questions that Wolfe had been setting in the previous two books. Maybe this was unreasonable of me when dealing with Gene, but I was frustrated with the fact that he just kept raising more questions without giving enough clues in the text to solve any of them. (I also find some discussions in this group lately to be speculating more and more freely in trying to invent solutions that may fit the facts, but have no textual support.) \n\n It could just be me, but I am feeling that in his more recent works, Wolfe has not been playing fair with his readers. I still think that he and Crowley are the best writers in the science fiction field, but I really don't think that his recent work has been up to his own high standards.\n\n Certain stylistic habits are getting harder to bear. If I read one more narrator telling me that there are three reasons why he is doing something, but just happens to get sidetracked before he tells me all of them, or starts to expain a major incident in the plot, but veers off with a description of ways of growing cabbages, I may have to be restrained from tearing pages from books. Too many narrators are children, or people who don't write very well, or are not very intelligent, just as an excuse to obscure facts and with-hold information that would normally be provided in the text. I find this a contrived and unnatural way of creating puzzles. A problem that arises through plotting, or genuine lack of knowledge on the part of a character, seems to me to be a proper part of a story, but having the narrator forget to tell us is becoming a contrivance.\n\n Is it just me feeling particularly grumpy tonight, or does everyone else feel that these are justified ways of provoking thought and reflection on a story?\n\n Allan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-25T22:20:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: [urth] Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: Allan Lloyd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Is it just me feeling particularly grumpy tonight, or does everyone\nelse feel that\nthese are justified ways of provoking thought and reflection on a story?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's just you feeling grumpy. ;-)\n\nNo. I can see it. I have even had the experience of reading the SS books\nand having it come out like that. They are hard books to read and they take\na lot of effort, continual effort, to read.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-05-26T04:45:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: [urth] Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:20 PM +0100 5/25/02, Andy Robertson wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: Allan Lloyd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Is it just me feeling particularly grumpy tonight, or does everyone\nelse feel that\n these are justified ways of provoking thought and reflection on a story?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's just you feeling grumpy. ;-)\n\nNo. I can see it. I have even had the experience of reading the SS books\nand having it come out like that. They are hard books to read and they take\na lot of effort, continual effort, to read.\n\n hartshorn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with Allan. I didn't care for the Short Sun books and I still don't.\n\nAndy Robertson, in his passage above, suggests I have not put enough \neffort into reading the books. This may be true. In fact, it is very \nlikely.\n\nBut writing is a two way street; I expect to get some kind of return \nfor the effort I put into reading something, some kind of \nsatisfaction. I have gotten that from most of what Gene Wolfe has \nwritten, enough, at least, so that I feel that I was part of a fair \nexchange. (And in many cases, the return I have gotten from reading \nWolfe's work was much more than fair.) But I don't feel that way with \nthe Short Sun books. They seem a bit slip shod, between mysteries \nbeing piled on mysteries and the seemingly unnecessary shoe-horning \nof the Urth of the Old Sun into the final volume. It may be that I am \ntotally missing the grand design. But if that's the case I doubt I \nwill ever see it; I am not likely to re-read the series.\n\nOf course, someone on this list could post a revelatory message that \nmakes me see the light, but I haven't been convinced by any attempts \nso far." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steve Strickland", "address": "sstrickland at satx.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-05-26T13:52:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: [urth] Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "TBOTSS is my favorite of all Wolfe's works. Though I can't claim to have\nsolved every mystery the books have to offer, I don't think the \"grand\ndesign\" is nearly as difficult to grasp as some of the posts claim. I can't\neven begin to describe how rewarding these titles have been for me.\n\nI cast my vote in favor of the SS.\n\n\nSteve Strickland\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"William Ansley\" \nTo: \nSent: Saturday, May 25, 2002 11:45 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Re: [urth] Why I don't like TBOTSS\nAt 11:20 PM +0100 5/25/02, Andy Robertson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "----- Original Message -----\nFrom: Allan Lloyd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " Is it just me feeling particularly grumpy tonight, or does everyone\nelse feel that\n these are justified ways of provoking thought and reflection on a\nstory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's just you feeling grumpy. ;-)\n\nNo. I can see it. I have even had the experience of reading the SS\nbooks\nand having it come out like that. They are hard books to read and they\ntake\na lot of effort, continual effort, to read.\n\n hartshorn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with Allan. I didn't care for the Short Sun books and I still\ndon't.\n\nAndy Robertson, in his passage above, suggests I have not put enough\neffort into reading the books. This may be true. In fact, it is very\nlikely.\n\nBut writing is a two way street; I expect to get some kind of return\nfor the effort I put into reading something, some kind of\nsatisfaction. I have gotten that from most of what Gene Wolfe has\nwritten, enough, at least, so that I feel that I was part of a fair\nexchange. (And in many cases, the return I have gotten from reading\nWolfe's work was much more than fair.) But I don't feel that way with\nthe Short Sun books. They seem a bit slip shod, between mysteries\nbeing piled on mysteries and the seemingly unnecessary shoe-horning\nof the Urth of the Old Sun into the final volume. It may be that I am\ntotally missing the grand design. But if that's the case I doubt I\nwill ever see it; I am not likely to re-read the series.\n\nOf course, someone on this list could post a revelatory message that\nmakes me see the light, but I haven't been convinced by any attempts\nso far.\n--\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-28T18:13:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: [urth] Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/25/02 4:04 PM, Allan Lloyd at allan-lloyd at lineone.net wrote:\nAdam,\n Way back in the archives there is a post from me expressing deep\ndissatisfaction with the Short Sun books, and because of this, I too have\nnot been taking much part in the discussion of the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, I remembered that post. I reread it the other day, and it's a good\none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I also find some discussions in this group lately to be speculating more and\nmore freely in trying to invent solutions that may fit the facts, but have\nno textual support.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, this was another of the things that provoked me to articulate my\ndissatisfaction. Of course, people have done this with all Wolfe's works,\nbut the Short Sun books seem to particularly invite it. Take, for example,\nPig's being a godling, which has been confirmed by Wolfe thanks to Nick\nGevers. As far as I can tell, this is a completely arbitrary detail. You\npractically have to make up a story of your own to give it any meaning." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Certain stylistic habits are getting harder to bear. If I read one more\nnarrator telling me that there are three reasons why he is doing something,\nbut just happens to get sidetracked before he tells me all of them, or\nstarts to expain a major incident in the plot, but veers off with a\ndescription of ways of growing cabbages, I may have to be restrained from\ntearing pages from books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lol!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Too many narrators are children, or people who don't write very well, or are\nnot very intelligent, just as an excuse to obscure facts and with-hold\ninformation that would normally be provided in the text. I find this a\ncontrived and unnatural way of creating puzzles." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I don't think think the problem is the techniques Wolfe uses. Unexplained\ndetails, narrators who omit crucial information, pulp-SF elements: Wolfe has\nused all these before, in many of his best works. The difference is, as\nyou said in your original post, that here they don't convince. In his\nearlier works they served to deepen and enrich; here, as you say, they come\noff as contrived and unnatural.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-28T20:32:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Re: [urth] Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Andy Robertson wrote:\n----- Original Message -----\nFrom: Allan Lloyd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Is it just me feeling particularly grumpy tonight, or does everyone\nelse feel that\nthese are justified ways of provoking thought and reflection on a\nstory?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's just you feeling grumpy. ;-)\n\nNo. I can see it. I have even had the experience of reading the SS\nbooks\nand having it come out like that. They are hard books to read and they\ntake\na lot of effort, continual effort, to read." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No doubt, and (or but) I get the feeling that they could have been\nsimilar but better books and easier to read at the same time. A\nfeeling I don't get from the New Sun books.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-28T20:36:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Thu, 23 May 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And the more I think about it, the more Wolfe's failure to depict\nHorn's\nrelationship with Krait seems like a cop-out. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[...]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Regardless of what Wolfe's\nactual motives were, it feels like he didn't show the developing\nrelationship because he couldn't figure out how to make it plausible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I liked the scenes we saw, and I didn't really feel the need for more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or maybe he edited it out because he wanted to show us the similar story\nof how Jahlee became Silkhorn's daughter, and having both seemed too\nrepetitive.\n\nOf course it's not the same, since Silkhorn isn't just Horn, and Horn\nloving Krait is probably even more of a stretch than Silkhorn loving\nJahlee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not for me, since Krait has Sinew's soul, and the intense reasons\nHorn has to dislike Krait are not the years of habits that keep him\nfrom getting along with Sinew.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alex David Groce", "address": "alex_groce at forlesen.modck.cs.cmu.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-29T17:11:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Allow me to weigh in on the \"likes SS\" side, but with the caveat that\nwhile my visceral reaction is favorable, and many passages I love\ndeeply, most of the criticisms people have aimed at it I don't have an\nargument against. I quit discussing Short Sun on the list because I\nliked it, and discussion made me like it less because it brought up\nthe irritating aspect over and over, and I don't have much to _say_\nfruitfully about the parts that I loved. \"Whereof we cannot speak\"\nand all that.\n\nDan'l's post on souls is a case in point: certainly Short Sun is all\nabout this, and that's part of why it is in so many ways so\nunresolved, but so are New Sun and Long Sun--which don't have the same\nfeeling of a failure to get to grips with things.\n\nI've put off a reread because I'm fairly sure I will enjoy it, but I\ndon't feel likely to resolve anything I didn't last time, and that\nfrustrates me.\n\nHere's hoping _The Wizard Knight_ is such that it inspires a more\ncoherent admiration in all of us, and a little less blind men\ndescribing an elephant when it comes to our delving into its\nmysteries. And that any never-before-seen words Clute uses in\nreviewing it are ones I'll find useful." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "\"And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.\" John 8:32\n--\nAlex David Groce (agroce+ at cs.cmu.edu)\nPh.D. Student, Carnegie Mellon University - Computer Science Department\n8112 Wean Hall (412)-268-3066\nhttp://www.cs.cmu.edu/~agroce\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-29T17:49:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Why I don't like TBOTSS", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Alex David Groce\" \nmysteries. And that any never-before-seen words Clute uses in\nreviewing it are ones I'll find useful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now then, let's stay within the bounds of reality, shall we?\n\n\n hartshorn " } ] } ] }