{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3279", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3279, "subject": "revelatory message/converting dislike", "messages": 10, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-05-26T14:07:53+00:00", "last": "2002-05-30T14:17:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-26T14:07:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In writing once again (no doubt seen for the first time by many) about his\ndisappointment in TBOSS, William Ansley writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, someone on this list could post a revelatory message that\nmakes me see the light, but I haven't been convinced by any attempts\nso far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! I will steer clear of the more irritating aspects of this and focus on\nthe more intriguing root of it. It applies to William, since he wrote it,\nbut it may very well apply to others.\n\nMy question to William and anyone else who cares to answer is this: Have\nyou ever received a revelatory message about a disliked Wolfe fiction that\nmade you \"see the light\" and revise your dislike of it? More than once?\nWhat were the fictions, what were the revelations, to what degree did it\nchange your dislike (how many levels did it rise up--did you actually come\nto like it?), and how long ago was it?\n\nI suspect it has never happened, like countless urban legends that have\n\"really happened\" to a friend of a friend but never to the informant. If\nthis is true, then pining after such a conversion through revelation is\nlike chasing after mirages; chasing after mirages is frustrating in itself\nand causes its own negative energy feedback loop, perhaps.\n\nBut still, here we put it to the test. If there is a mass of testamonial\nevidence to show that such things have happened with relative frequency,\nthen I will have to adjust my reality-map accordingly.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-26T15:04:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" \n\nBut still, here we put it to the test. If there is a mass of testamonial\nevidence to show that such things have happened with relative frequency,\nthen I will have to adjust my reality-map accordingly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It happened to me. On my first reading of 5HC as a young twentysomething I\nthought if a fine bit of writing but rather confused, fragmentary plotwise.\nThe depths bypassed me entirely. It was not until I met other readers\nthat the book was opened up for me.\n\nMea cupla, mea maxima culpa: but it was Wolfe taught me that SF books\n*could* be like that. Scratch that, it was Wolfe who taught me *books*\ncould be like that.\n\n hartshorn." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-05-28T15:10:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 7:07 AM -0700 5/26/02, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nIn writing once again (no doubt seen for the first time by many) about his\ndisappointment in TBOSS, William Ansley writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, someone on this list could post a revelatory message that\nmakes me see the light, but I haven't been convinced by any attempts\nso far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah! I will steer clear of the more irritating aspects of this and focus on\nthe more intriguing root of it. It applies to William, since he wrote it,\nbut it may very well apply to others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry that I irritated you, Michael, but I'm not sure how. Is is \njust that I don't like the Short Suns books or that I say so or that \nI am incapable of clearly articulating why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My question to William and anyone else who cares to answer is this: Have\nyou ever received a revelatory message about a disliked Wolfe fiction that\nmade you \"see the light\" and revise your dislike of it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have misread my intent in the passage you quoted, above. I am not \n\"pining for conversion through revelation.\" In fact, I doubt that any \nrevelation about the Short Sun books could \"convert\" me. It was my \nway of saying, \"Since so many people on this mailing list, who seem \nto know so much more about literature, religion and Gene Wolfe \nhimself than I do, like the books and I don't, maybe my opinion isn't \nvalid.\"\n\nHaving put it that way, perhaps I can see the source of your \nirritation. If I doubt the validity of my own opinion, I shouldn't \nhave bothered everyone on this list with it.\n\nMy apologies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-28T15:50:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 26 May 2002, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nMy question to William and anyone else who cares to answer is this: Have\nyou ever received a revelatory message about a disliked Wolfe fiction that\nmade you \"see the light\" and revise your dislike of it? More than once?\nWhat were the fictions, what were the revelations, to what degree did it\nchange your dislike (how many levels did it rise up--did you actually come\nto like it?), and how long ago was it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This has happened to me several times, not just with Wolfe. I guess I'm\njust particularly dense.\n\nUrth of the New Sun - I disliked this because I had too many wrong\ninterpretations about the New Sun Quartet and it went totally against\nthem. After spending some time reading this list and going back through\nthe whole series again I enjoyed all of them more, and the difference was\nprobably greatest for this book.\n\nI think the most important insight I had was simply to let Wolfe take me\nwhere he wanted to go and show me what he wanted, and enjoy the\nride. Once I got over not having the plot do what I thought it should do\nand not getting to see the scenes I thought I wanted to see, I really\nenjoyed what was actually there.\n\nI didn't much like 5HC the first time I read it either, but after getting\nsome hints from this group on how it all fit together, I went back and\nenjoyed it quite a bit. (Still my least favorite Wolfe, but I did enjoy\nit the second time through).\n\nI can't say how much these differences are from insights from the list and\nhow much is just from giving the works a second read, but I think both\nwere involved.\n\nAs for the Short Sun books, I loved them the first time and the second\ntime. Yes they have problems, and leave some of my desires unsatisfied\n(I'm not sure Wolfe's has a satisfying and coherent idea about what the\n\"Secret\" is, and I'm not wild about the ending), but what is there is\nwonderful.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-28T17:38:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"William Ansley\" \n\nHaving put it that way, perhaps I can see the source of your\nirritation. If I doubt the validity of my own opinion, I shouldn't\nhave bothered everyone on this list with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why on Urth not? Doubts and uncertainties are hardly alien to the\nLupverse.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-28T17:51:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "William Ansley quoted and wrote:\nOf course, someone on this list could post a revelatory message that\nmakes me see the light, but I haven't been convinced by any attempts\nso far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah! I will steer clear of the more irritating aspects of this and focus on\nthe more intriguing root of it. It applies to William, since he wrote it,\nbut it may very well apply to others." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sorry that I irritated you, Michael, but I'm not sure how. Is is\njust that I don't like the Short Suns books or that I say so or that\nI am incapable of clearly articulating why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William, the sentence I quoted seems rather loaded to me: \"revelatory\nmessage,\" \"makes me see the light,\" \"any attempts so far.\" It practically\nthrows down a gauntlet. All together it paints you as being something like\na fairytale magistrate, having established a contest with a prize to anyone\nwho can prove to you that the world is flat, and after listening to a long\nsequence of sages and lunatics you are getting understandably weary of the\nwhole thing.\n\nI find it irksome to be told that I (as a member of the class of people who\npost on this list and like TBOTSS) have failed in a contest, when I was not\naware of said contest and in fact I would not knowingly participate in such\na contest (blind-man's bluff/battle royale). OT1H I'm deeply sorry to have\n\"let you down,\" yet OTOH since I didn't enter the race and I didn't even\nhear the starting gun, then am I to feel sorry for not running a race that\nI would never chose to run? Instead I am irked. Aside from all that, I\nwondered what result you were seeking, using such terms as you were using." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My question to William and anyone else who cares to answer is this: Have\nyou ever received a revelatory message about a disliked Wolfe fiction that\nmade you \"see the light\" and revise your dislike of it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have misread my intent in the passage you quoted, above. I am not\n\"pining for conversion through revelation.\" In fact, I doubt that any\nrevelation about the Short Sun books could \"convert\" me. It was my\nway of saying, \"Since so many people on this mailing list, who seem\nto know so much more about literature, religion and Gene Wolfe\nhimself than I do, like the books and I don't, maybe my opinion isn't\nvalid.\"\n\nHaving put it that way, perhaps I can see the source of your\nirritation. If I doubt the validity of my own opinion, I shouldn't\nhave bothered everyone on this list with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't understand how your opinion can be anything other than valid.\n\nI guess I can understand a desire to have one's opinion \"validated\" by\nbeing shared by x-number of people, if that is part of what you are saying,\nbut I think it is valid even if nobody else has the same opinion.\n\nIf you are seeking validity, then just like in WWOZ, you had it all along.\nBut that is not likely to be the right answer.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-28T18:28:06+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "William wrote:\nHaving put it that way, perhaps I can see the source of your\nirritation. If I doubt the validity of my own opinion, I shouldn't\nhave bothered everyone on this list with it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And Mantis replied:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't understand how your opinion can be anything other than valid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Easily; a misinformed or ill-informed opinion is not valid. (Harlan's\nlaw: everyone is _not_ entitled to an opinion; they are entitled to\nan _informed_ opinion.) However, since William's opinion in this case \nwas about his own likes and dislikes, he could hardly be other than\ninformed." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-28T20:19:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Sun, 26 May 2002, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My question to William and anyone else who cares to answer is this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have\nyou ever received a revelatory message about a disliked Wolfe fiction\nthat\nmade you \"see the light\" and revise your dislike of it? More than\nonce?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What were the fictions, what were the revelations, to what degree did\nit\nchange your dislike (how many levels did it rise up--did you actually\ncome\nto like it?), and how long ago was it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This has happened to me several times, not just with Wolfe. I guess I'm\njust particularly dense.\n\nUrth of the New Sun - I disliked this because I had too many wrong\ninterpretations about the New Sun Quartet and it went totally against\nthem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same here, although there was only one of my interpretations of TBotNS\nthat it went against: I thought the ending of _Citadel_ was at least\nhopeful and it turned out to be a disaster. I didn't like that *one\nbit*. If I let it, _Urth_ would spoil my enjoyment of TBotNS.\n\nThe other thing I didn't like about _Urth_ is that, for something like\nthe first half, Wolfe seemed to be writing in his sleep. I couldn't\nbelieve this was the same person who had written his earlier books.\nI may even have worried about his health. Am I the only person who\nthinks that book was astonishingly poorly written?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After spending some time reading this list and going back through\nthe whole series again I enjoyed all of them more, and the difference\nwas\nprobably greatest for this book.\n\nI think the most important insight I had was simply to let Wolfe take me\nwhere he wanted to go and show me what he wanted, and enjoy the\nride. Once I got over not having the plot do what I thought it should\ndo\nand not getting to see the scenes I thought I wanted to see, I really\nenjoyed what was actually there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I guess I could try it..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I didn't much like 5HC the first time I read it either, but after\ngetting\nsome hints from this group on how it all fit together, I went back and\nenjoyed it quite a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same here. I just read 5HC a couple months ago, and people's comments\non the Gene Wolfes' project really helped me enjoy the title novella\na lot more.\n\nOn the other hand, I enjoyed the New Sun from the moment Severian had\na present(i)ment of his future (can't remember which was at the\nbeginning and which was at the end)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Still my least favorite Wolfe, but I did enjoy\nit the second time through).\n\nI can't say how much these differences are from insights from the list\nand\nhow much is just from giving the works a second read, but I think both\nwere involved.\n\nAs for the Short Sun books, I loved them the first time and the second\ntime. Yes they have problems, and leave some of my desires unsatisfied\n(I'm not sure Wolfe's has a satisfying and coherent idea about what the\n\"Secret\" is, and I'm not wild about the ending), but what is there is\nwonderful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as we're criticizing these books, I remember that in his\ninterview with Nick Gevers, Wolfe said that Severian shows up because\nhe was like the gun on the wall that has to be fired (but Wolfe forgot\nto give credit to Chekhov). Well for heaven's sake! What about the\nconversation with Sinew on Green? Isn't that a large cannon loaded\nand pointed at the bullseye? Like Allen Lloyd, I got really tired\nof Wolfe's leaving things out in this series, and leaving out that\nscene was the worst.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-05-30T13:57:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 5/28/02 3:19 PM, Jerry Friedman at jerry_friedman at yahoo.com wrote:\nAs long as we're criticizing these books, I remember that in his\ninterview with Nick Gevers, Wolfe said that Severian shows up because\nhe was like the gun on the wall that has to be fired (but Wolfe forgot\nto give credit to Chekhov)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That comment struck me as strange. The idea seemed to be that if two books\nare set in the same universe and the protagonists can possibly meet, they\nhave to do so (as if Balzac were required to have all the protagonists of\nhis Comedie Humaine meet each other). I certainly wouldn't have feot\ncheated if Severian had never appeared in the Short Sun books.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-30T14:17:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) revelatory message/converting dislike", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 30 May 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 5/28/02 3:19 PM, Jerry Friedman at jerry_friedman at yahoo.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As long as we're criticizing these books, I remember that in his\ninterview with Nick Gevers, Wolfe said that Severian shows up because\nhe was like the gun on the wall that has to be fired (but Wolfe forgot\nto give credit to Chekhov)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That comment struck me as strange. The idea seemed to be that if two books\nare set in the same universe and the protagonists can possibly meet, they\nhave to do so (as if Balzac were required to have all the protagonists of\nhis Comedie Humaine meet each other). I certainly wouldn't have feot\ncheated if Severian had never appeared in the Short Sun books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with you, but I remember before the SS series came out, there was\nquite a bit of speculation on this list about whether Severian would\nappear in the next book, whether Severian might in some way be identified\nwith the Outsider, etc.\n\nAnd given Severian's abilities to walk the corridors of time it wasn't\nhard to believe he could somehow show up on Blue. I think it's fun that\nWolfe turned that presumption on its head. \n\nAnd also that it creates a sort of circle. One should read the New Sun\nseries first, but the bits with Severian at the end of RTTW lead right\nback into the New Sun series, and in fact prompted me to give the New Sun\nbooks a re-read after I'd finished RTTW, which I greatly enjoyed.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }