{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3282", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3282, "subject": "FLF", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-05-28T04:07:22+00:00", "last": "2002-05-28T20:30:09+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-28T04:07:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FLF", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A few random notes from my weekend reread of _Free Live Free_ that may still\nbe pertinent, the vast majority of what I would have said having already\nbeen duly noted, primarily by Mssrs. Nutria and Ansley back in V.30.\n\nFirst the characters, Nutria casting them thusly:\n\n\"Now, in WWOz the three Oz characters are animal, vegetable, and mineral. I\ndon't know how Wolfe might be playing with this. But they are also mind,\nemotion, and will. Stubb - very smart; mind (Scarecrow; vegetable?) Candy -\nvery loving; emotion (Tin Woodman; mineral?) Serpentina - very determined;\nwill (Lion; animal?) Which leaves Barnes as Dorothy, and Little Ozzie as\nToto. And of course Ben Free as the Wizard. Free is not a humbug, but I\nthink he is trapped in 'Oz', and only escapes through death. Free does move\nupwards (compare the wizard's balloon).\"\n\nI'd like to propose a somewhat different mapping. (My apologies if this has\nbeen suggested before, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the archives.)\nCandy Garth is the very obvious Dorothy; she sings like the Dorothy of\ncinematic Oz and Garth seems like one of those nested names Wolfe uses so\nfrequently (GAil, doRoTHy). Osgood Barnes, a.k.a. \"Ozzy,\" is the wizard\nmanqué, the seller of cheap tricks and novelties. Madam Serpentina is the\nwitch. (Duh.) And little Stubbs, who's described as jockey size, is a\nmunchkin. This leaves only Ben Free, the true wizard--and someone whose\n\"magic\" may also include changing water into wine and raising the dead (see\nWilliam Ansley's post).\n\nOne, of course, may also impose, as the author himself does, a Popeye\nschema. Osgood = Popeye; M. Snake = Olive; Little Ozzy = Sweepea; Stubbs =\nWimpy; and Candy = Brutus???\n\nIn addition, several of the characters have M's associated with their names.\nMadam Serpentina a.k.a. Marie; Osgood M. Barnes; Catharine M. Garth. But\nwhat does the M stand for? An upside down W? A very oblique tip of the hat\nto L. Frank Baum? (M being the next letter after L and this being Wolfe's\ntopsy-turvy version of \"The Wizard of Oz.\" Someone, somewhere, does say\nsomething about being in the wrong movie.)\n\nThen there's the \"house\" of Ben Free--Garth also meaning yard, Stubb (from\nthe German Stube, as Wolfe tells us) meaning room, and Barnes being where\nyou put the cows and horses.\n\nShared optical difficulties also prevent quite a few of the characters from\nseeing properly. Osgood has a glass eye, Madam Serpentina wears contacts,\nStubbs has bottle-bottom glasses, and Free is described as poor sighted but\nyet is able to detect someone's irises contracting in basement murk. Perhaps\nthe latter plays off the notion as God-as-clear-sighted and the rest of us\nas His myopic underlings stumbling around in the dark.\n\nConsidering that FLF was written by Wolfe while on break from _Urth of the\nNew Sun_, might we describe the High Country shadow government of Ben Free\nas a bunch of \"High-rodules\"?\n\nAnd lastly, considering that the overall tone of the book is that of a light\nFrank Capra movie, does anyone find it strange that this is the only Wolfe\nwork to contains the words f*ck, sh*t, motherf*cker and bullsh*t?\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-05-28T15:32:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:07 PM 5/27/2002 -0500, the Borski wrote:\nA few random notes from my weekend reread of _Free Live Free_ that may \nstill be pertinent, the vast majority of what I would have said having already\nbeen duly noted, primarily by Mssrs. Nutria and Ansley back in V.30.\n\nFirst the characters, Nutria casting them thusly:\n\n\"Now, in WWOz the three Oz characters are animal, vegetable, and mineral. \nI don't know how Wolfe might be playing with this. But they are also mind,\nemotion, and will. Stubb - very smart; mind (Scarecrow; vegetable?) Candy -\nvery loving; emotion (Tin Woodman; mineral?) Serpentina - very determined;\nwill (Lion; animal?) Which leaves Barnes as Dorothy, and Little Ozzie as\nToto. And of course Ben Free as the Wizard. Free is not a humbug, but I\nthink he is trapped in 'Oz', and only escapes through death. Free does move\nupwards (compare the wizard's balloon).\"\n\nI'd like to propose a somewhat different mapping. (My apologies if this has\nbeen suggested before, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the archives.)\nCandy Garth is the very obvious Dorothy; she sings like the Dorothy of\ncinematic Oz and Garth seems like one of those nested names Wolfe uses so\nfrequently (GAil, doRoTHy). Osgood Barnes, a.k.a. \"Ozzy,\" is the wizard\nmanqué, the seller of cheap tricks and novelties. Madam Serpentina is the\nwitch. (Duh.) And little Stubbs, who's described as jockey size, is a\nmunchkin. This leaves only Ben Free, the true wizard--and someone whose\n\"magic\" may also include changing water into wine and raising the dead (see\nWilliam Ansley's post)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This sure looks right, but I'll bet I'm right also. Surely Wolfe \nhas read *Ringworld,* where the Oz characters are switched, so that the \nlion-like character lacks brains, the grotesque scarecrow puppeteer lacks \ncourage, the Dorothy-girls lacks a heart, etc. Knowing what we do of Wolfe, \nand the fact that Christian imagery and also Popeye stuff is laid over the \ncharacters, I would not be surprised if both your and my schemes are \"right.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One, of course, may also impose, as the author himself does, a Popeye\nschema. Osgood = Popeye; M. Snake = Olive; Little Ozzy = Sweepea; Stubbs = \nWimpy; and Candy = Brutus???" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Do you think maybe the Pop-EYE overlay has something to do with \nthe theme of seeing clearly, as you set it out? Or maybe it's just more \n\"America\" stuff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In addition, several of the characters have M's associated with their names.\nMadam Serpentina a.k.a. Marie; Osgood M. Barnes; Catharine M. Garth. But \nwhat does the M stand for? An upside down W? A very oblique tip of the hat \nto L. Frank Baum? (M being the next letter after L and this being Wolfe's\ntopsy-turvy version of \"The Wizard of Oz.\" Someone, somewhere, does say\nsomething about being in the wrong movie.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Dunno, of course. But I have toyed with Marie as some kind of \ncypher for the Church/Mary. Ben Free is some kind of \"Americanized Christ \nfigure,\" and the new group he forms is a kind of new Church, and Marie is \npart of it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then there's the \"house\" of Ben Free--Garth also meaning yard, Stubb (from\nthe German Stube, as Wolfe tells us) meaning room, and Barnes being where\nyou put the cows and horses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Sounds right, especially if this \"house\" of persons \"elected\" by \nBen (Christ) Free is some kind of new \"America\"-church." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shared optical difficulties also prevent quite a few of the characters from\nseeing properly. Osgood has a glass eye, Madam Serpentina wears contacts,\nStubbs has bottle-bottom glasses, and Free is described as poor sighted but\nyet is able to detect someone's irises contracting in basement murk. Perhaps\nthe latter plays off the notion as God-as-clear-sighted and the rest of us\nas His myopic underlings stumbling around in the dark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I took it as the blindness (imperception) of sin (they all have \nbesetting sins) that some kind of \"grace\" needs to overcome. Free also has \npoor physical eyesight (thus being like those he is saving), but has clear \nin-sight, which is what the characters need to arrive at." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering that FLF was written by Wolfe while on break from _Urth of the\nNew Sun_, might we describe the High Country shadow government of Ben Free \nas a bunch of \"High-rodules\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Perhaps. But given that it was written then, I think we are \nentitled to look for some of the same themes, such as obviously travelling \nthe corridors of time.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-05-28T20:30:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FLF", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Robert Borski wrote:\nA few random notes from my weekend reread of _Free Live Free_ that may\nstill\nbe pertinent, the vast majority of what I would have said having already\nbeen duly noted, primarily by Mssrs. Nutria and Ansley back in V.30.\n\nFirst the characters, Nutria casting them thusly:\n\n\"Now, in WWOz the three Oz characters are animal, vegetable, and\nmineral. I\ndon't know how Wolfe might be playing with this. But they are also mind,\nemotion, and will. Stubb - very smart; mind (Scarecrow; vegetable?)\nCandy -\nvery loving; emotion (Tin Woodman; mineral?) Serpentina - very\ndetermined;\nwill (Lion; animal?) Which leaves Barnes as Dorothy, and Little Ozzie as\nToto." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I like Little Ozzie as Toto." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And of course Ben Free as the Wizard. Free is not a humbug, but I\nthink he is trapped in 'Oz', and only escapes through death. Free does\nmove\nupwards (compare the wizard's balloon).\"\n\nI'd like to propose a somewhat different mapping. (My apologies if this\nhas\nbeen suggested before, but I couldn't find it anywhere in the archives.)\nCandy Garth is the very obvious Dorothy; she sings like the Dorothy of\ncinematic Oz and Garth seems like one of those nested names Wolfe uses\nso\nfrequently (GAil, doRoTHy). Osgood Barnes, a.k.a. \"Ozzy,\" is the wizard\nmanqué, the seller of cheap tricks and novelties. Madam Serpentina is\nthe\nwitch. (Duh.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which witch? Both (or all three)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And little Stubbs, who's described as jockey size, is a\nmunchkin. This leaves only Ben Free, the true wizard--and someone whose\n\"magic\" may also include changing water into wine and raising the dead\n(see William Ansley's post)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This makes as much sense to me as anything, but to me the resemblance\nto _The Wizard of Oz_ is mostly that it's four characters having\nadventures on a quest and ending up conferring with someone who can\ntell them some answers and grant wishes. As Nutria implied, I doubt\nthere are good correspondences between characters in the two works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One, of course, may also impose, as the author himself does, a Popeye\nschema. Osgood = Popeye; M. Snake = Olive; Little Ozzy = Sweepea; Stubbs\n=\nWimpy; and Candy = Brutus???\n\nIn addition, several of the characters have M's associated with their\nnames.\nMadam Serpentina a.k.a. Marie; Osgood M. Barnes; Catharine M. Garth. But\nwhat does the M stand for? An upside down W? A very oblique tip of the\nhat\nto L. Frank Baum? (M being the next letter after L and this being\nWolfe's\ntopsy-turvy version of \"The Wizard of Oz.\" Someone, somewhere, does say\nsomething about being in the wrong movie.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now that M is an interesting one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then there's the \"house\" of Ben Free--Garth also meaning yard, Stubb\n(from\nthe German Stube, as Wolfe tells us) meaning room, and Barnes being\nwhere\nyou put the cows and horses." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hadn't noticed that! Then Madame S. would be the wild snake that\nslithers in now and then, or the ancient Greek \"house snake\" (which\nI know about from a highly reliable historical source: _The King\nMust Die_.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Shared optical difficulties also prevent quite a few of the characters\nfrom\nseeing properly. Osgood has a glass eye, Madam Serpentina wears\ncontacts,\nStubbs has bottle-bottom glasses, and Free is described as poor sighted\nbut\nyet is able to detect someone's irises contracting in basement murk.\nPerhaps\nthe latter plays off the notion as God-as-clear-sighted and the rest of\nus as His myopic underlings stumbling around in the dark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A good one, but how does Candy fit in? She sees clearly, but can't\ncontrol the appetites of the flesh?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering that FLF was written by Wolfe while on break from _Urth of\nthe\nNew Sun_, might we describe the High Country shadow government of Ben\nFree\nas a bunch of \"High-rodules\"?\n\nAnd lastly, considering that the overall tone of the book is that of a\nlight\nFrank Capra movie, does anyone find it strange that this is the only\nWolfe\nwork to contains the words f*ck, sh*t, motherf*cker and bullsh*t?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh heh. I guess people don't swear in the future, the past, or\nalternate timelines.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }