{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3285", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3285, "subject": "Tracking Song", "messages": 9, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-05-29T06:05:03+00:00", "last": "2002-06-06T14:54:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-29T06:05:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lots and lots of commentary on \"Tracking Song\" in the early days of the\nlist, but not much since, so I thought I'd upload my own interpretation.\n\nIs it possible that Gene Wolfe, drawing upon sf's pulpish roots, is\nattempting to rewrite an older story still--namely, the wanderings of the\nfirst murderer, Cain?\n\nCutthroat, of course, is our protagonist's name, his nom de tribu being\nconferred upon him by the Wiggikki because he has \"a reddish-brown birthmark\non my throat from one side of the hair behind my neck to the other.\" As for\nhis real name, Cutthroat claims he doesn't remember it. But notice how\n\"cutthroat\" is also a synonym for \"murderer.\" As for the birthmark, it\nlikely symbolizes the unspecified mark God places on Cain so that no one\nwill murder him. This \"mark of Cain\" aspect is reinforced later when\nLongknife tells Cutthroat, \"You are under an enchantment. That is good for\nyou.\" \"Why is that?\" Cutthroat asks. Responds Longknife: \"No one will kill\nyou. When an enchanted animal dies, the spell runs up the weapon, seeking a\nnew home.\"\n\nCutthroat is recording the progress of his quest to catch up to the Great\nSleigh. \"I want to leave a record of what has happened to me, so that if\nsomeone comes for me, and finds me dead, he will understand. I feel that\nsomeone may, though I do not know why. And I want him to understand.\" This\nperson who Cutthroat/Cain senses is looking for him is God, and he knows\nwhy--he's killed Abel--just as he clearly does _not_ want to be understood.\n(\"Am I my brother's keeper?\")\n\nCutthroat also finds that he can speak the language of the animal tribes,\n\"though badly.\" This makes sense in the postlapsarian world. In the Garden\nthe beasts of the wild and the field all spoke a single language\nunderstandable to Adam. A generation later, after the diaspora from Eden,\nthat same ability by his children has begun to deteriorate.\n\nWhen Cutthroat encounters the Pamigaka, a hoe is extended to him, an action\nCutthroat believes is \"clearly a ritual gesture of some kind.\" Cutthroat\nasks about being allowed to leave in peace, but is then told by Eggseeker,\n\"I would rather that you teach us your wisdom. Will you teach wisdom?\"\nBecause the name \"Cain\" means \"smith,\" and considering the extended hoe (an\nimplement also harkening back to Cain's days as a tiller of the soil), this\nappears to be an appeal to be taught metalworking (or perhaps gardening)\nskills.\n\nCain is the founder of the first city and his children will also be metal\nworkers, with direct descendant Tubal-cain being described as \"an instructor\nof every artificer in brass and iron.\" This may help explain why Cutthroat\nis able to bond with Roller, Dragon, and Bug, and get machines to help him.\n(The underground city of metal has apparently been built by Mantru or his\nancestors--Mantru being Cutthroat's symbolic twin.)\n\nAt one stage Cim Glowing asks Cutthroat, \"Suppose that when we catch up to\nthe Great Sleigh, they believe you have murdered one of their people?\" While\nin another passage Cutthroat wonders similarly: \"Surely, if a crewmember\nwere missing by some accident, the fact could not go unnoticed for long. The\nGreat Sleigh would reverse its course, or a rescue party would be sent back\nalong the track. As nearly as I could tell, neither of these things have\noccurred. It may very well be that I have been exiled for some crime, or\nthat, as Cim Glowing hinted, I have stolen these clothes and, with them, an\nidentity to which I am not entitled.\"\n\nThis, I posit, is exactly so: Cutthroat/Cain has murdered \"Abel\" and has\nbeen exiled as a consequence.\n\nLater, Cutthroat describes his travails in the metal city as \"wanderings,\"\nwhile Cutthroat's uncertainty about the 8th day is blamed on perpetual dusk.\n\"There is no day here, and no night,\" perhaps signifying he has finally (and\npunningly) come to the land of Nod. Certainly Nod is being alluded to when\nCutthroat sources his original home, \"To the east, from which I came.\"\n(Nod--meaning 'wandering' or 'homeless'--lays \"east of Eden.\")\n\nVampires are in at least one tradition (and several role-playing games, I\nbelieve) held to be the descendants of Cain and Lilith. So it makes sense\nthat Cutthroat encounters him, although they are more likely the offspring\nof Mantru-Cain rather than Cutthroat. (Another tradition makes the wicked\nangel Samael the father of Cain; perhaps this, along with the horned staff,\nreflects Mantru's true paternity.)\n\nThen there's Cutthroat's mysterious association with Ketin. Ketin (or rather\nhis wife Ketincha) is encountered early, when Cutthroat first finds himself\nwith the Wiggikki tribe. Describing the giantess, Red Kluy tells Cutthroat,\n\"She is Ketincha--you saw her. We're lucky her husband wasn't around. You\nshould see Ketin. They used to have a son, but he's gone away.\" Later,\nLongknife tells him, \"You are not a man. Hair grows on your face, and you\nmust cut it off. I followed you tonight. I think that you are cousin to\nKetin.\" Cutthroat protests that he has never even seen Ketin, to which\nLongknife rejoins, \"\"You remember nothing--why should you not forget your\ncousinship? Like you, he leaps very far, though he is big and you small. I\nthink that you are cousin to Ketin.\"\n\nKetin, I submit, is the symbolic equivalent of Adam--which makes Cutthroat\n(or possibly dead brother Abel) the son who's gone away. In less\nscientifically-astute times, the bones of dinosaurs were often thought to be\nthose of our primordial ancestors; Cutthroat, still a young man or perhaps\nan adolescent, is smaller than his symbolic father--plus, like Mantru, he's\ncommitted evil deeds and has perhaps therefore shrunk.\n\nThe Adam-Ketin link is further strengthened by onomastic evidence. 'Ketin,'\nin Kurmanji--a language spoken in the Tigris-Euphrates river valley, the\ntraditional site of Eden--means \"to fall.\" Furthermore, there is in the name\nKenites--signifying the tribe of metalworkers founded by eponymous Cain--the\nnested name Ketin. And just as there are two versions of Cain, there may\n(also like the moons) be two versions of Adam--a symbolic one; fallen Ketin,\nlost father-guardian of Eden--and the commander of the Great Sleigh. (Ketin\ndoes not recognize Cutthroat when they meet, so their relationship must be\nsymbolic.) (Note too how Cutthroat has \"fallen\": not only, as he alleges,\nfrom the Great Sleigh, but metaphorically as the first murderer.)\n\nAs for the commander, when Cutthroat finally does reach the Great\nSleigh--literally the technology of heaven if we accept that the space\npeople are terraforming the world in question to make it more habitable,\nperhaps even after a long nuclear winter--the last entry he records has\nCutthroat \"regaining\" his memory. \"I know who you are,\" he says. \"The small\nplanet is round, and you have come back, and the time for talking into this\nblack box is over. I am going to talk to you face to face. Who is that tall\nman with you? I think he has...wings?\"\n\nBut far from being an avian symbol of regenerative spring as Joan Gordon\nsuggests, the winged creature with commander Adam (the \"you\" being addressed\nby Cutthroat) is much more likely a\nforbidding presence, who will not allow Cutthroat to reboard.\n\nGod, of course, has other plans for Cain.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-29T06:07:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lots and lots of commentary on \"Tracking Song\" in the early days of the\nlist, but not much since, so I thought I'd upload my own interpretation.\n\nIs it possible that Gene Wolfe, drawing upon sf's pulpish roots, is\nattempting to rewrite an older story still--namely, the wanderings of the\nfirst murderer, Cain?\n\nCutthroat, of course, is our protagonist's name, his nom de tribu being\nconferred upon him by the Wiggikki because he has \"a reddish-brown birthmark\non my throat from one side of the hair behind my neck to the other.\" As for\nhis real name, Cutthroat claims he doesn't remember it. But notice how\n\"cutthroat\" is also a synonym for \"murderer.\" As for the birthmark, it\nlikely symbolizes the unspecified mark God places on Cain so that no one\nwill murder him. This \"mark of Cain\" aspect is reinforced later when\nLongknife tells Cutthroat, \"You are under an enchantment. That is good for\nyou.\" \"Why is that?\" Cutthroat asks. Responds Longknife: \"No one will kill\nyou. When an enchanted animal dies, the spell runs up the weapon, seeking a\nnew home.\"\n\nCutthroat is recording the progress of his quest to catch up to the Great\nSleigh. \"I want to leave a record of what has happened to me, so that if\nsomeone comes for me, and finds me dead, he will understand. I feel that\nsomeone may, though I do not know why. And I want him to understand.\" This\nperson who Cutthroat/Cain senses is looking for him is God, and he knows\nwhy--he's killed Abel--just as he clearly does _not_ want to be understood.\n(\"Am I my brother's keeper?\")\n\nCutthroat also finds that he can speak the language of the animal tribes,\n\"though badly.\" This makes sense in the postlapsarian world. In the Garden\nthe beasts of the wild and the field all spoke a single language\nunderstandable to Adam. A generation later, after the diaspora from Eden,\nthat same ability by his children has begun to deteriorate.\n\nWhen Cutthroat encounters the Pamigaka, a hoe is extended to him, an action\nCutthroat believes is \"clearly a ritual gesture of some kind.\" Cutthroat\nasks about being allowed to leave in peace, but is then told by Eggseeker,\n\"I would rather that you teach us your wisdom. Will you teach wisdom?\"\nBecause the name \"Cain\" means \"smith,\" and considering the extended hoe (an\nimplement also harkening back to Cain's days as a tiller of the soil), this\nappears to be an appeal to be taught metalworking (or perhaps gardening)\nskills.\n\nCain is the founder of the first city and his children will also be metal\nworkers, with direct descendant Tubal-cain being described as \"an instructor\nof every artificer in brass and iron.\" This may help explain why Cutthroat\nis able to bond with Roller, Dragon, and Bug, and get machines to help him.\n(The underground city of metal has apparently been built by Mantru or his\nancestors--Mantru being Cutthroat's symbolic twin.)\n\nAt one stage Cim Glowing asks Cutthroat, \"Suppose that when we catch up to\nthe Great Sleigh, they believe you have murdered one of their people?\" While\nin another passage Cutthroat wonders similarly: \"Surely, if a crewmember\nwere missing by some accident, the fact could not go unnoticed for long. The\nGreat Sleigh would reverse its course, or a rescue party would be sent back\nalong the track. As nearly as I could tell, neither of these things have\noccurred. It may very well be that I have been exiled for some crime, or\nthat, as Cim Glowing hinted, I have stolen these clothes and, with them, an\nidentity to which I am not entitled.\"\n\nThis, I posit, is exactly so: Cutthroat/Cain has murdered \"Abel\" and has\nbeen exiled as a consequence.\n\nLater, Cutthroat describes his travails in the metal city as \"wanderings,\"\nwhile Cutthroat's uncertainty about the 8th day is blamed on perpetual dusk.\n\"There is no day here, and no night,\" perhaps signifying he has finally (and\npunningly) come to the land of Nod. Certainly Nod is being alluded to when\nCutthroat sources his original home, \"To the east, from which I came.\"\n(Nod--meaning 'wandering' or 'homeless'--lays \"east of Eden.\")\n\nVampires are in at least one tradition (and several role-playing games, I\nbelieve) held to be the descendants of Cain and Lilith. So it makes sense\nthat Cutthroat encounters him, although they are more likely the offspring\nof Mantru-Cain rather than Cutthroat. (Another tradition makes the wicked\nangel Samael the father of Cain; perhaps this, along with the horned staff,\nreflects Mantru's true paternity.)\n\nThen there's Cutthroat's mysterious association with Ketin. Ketin (or rather\nhis wife Ketincha) is encountered early, when Cutthroat first finds himself\nwith the Wiggikki tribe. Describing the giantess, Red Kluy tells Cutthroat,\n\"She is Ketincha--you saw her. We're lucky her husband wasn't around. You\nshould see Ketin. They used to have a son, but he's gone away.\" Later,\nLongknife tells him, \"You are not a man. Hair grows on your face, and you\nmust cut it off. I followed you tonight. I think that you are cousin to\nKetin.\" Cutthroat protests that he has never even seen Ketin, to which\nLongknife rejoins, \"\"You remember nothing--why should you not forget your\ncousinship? Like you, he leaps very far, though he is big and you small. I\nthink that you are cousin to Ketin.\"\n\nKetin, I submit, is the symbolic equivalent of Adam--which makes Cutthroat\n(or possibly dead brother Abel) the son who's gone away. In less\nscientifically-astute times, the bones of dinosaurs were often thought to be\nthose of our primordial ancestors; Cutthroat, still a young man or perhaps\nan adolescent, is smaller than his symbolic father--plus, like Mantru, he's\ncommitted evil deeds and has perhaps therefore shrunk.\n\nThe Adam-Ketin link is further strengthened by onomastic evidence. 'Ketin,'\nin Kurmanji--a language spoken in the Tigris-Euphrates river valley, the\ntraditional site of Eden--means \"to fall.\" Furthermore, there is in the name\nKenites--signifying the tribe of metalworkers founded by eponymous Cain--the\nnested name Ketin. And just as there are two versions of Cain, there may\n(also like the moons) be two versions of Adam--a symbolic one; fallen Ketin,\nlost father-guardian of Eden--and the commander of the Great Sleigh. (Ketin\ndoes not recognize Cutthroat when they meet, so their relationship must be\nsymbolic.) (Note too how Cutthroat has \"fallen\": not only, as he alleges,\nfrom the Great Sleigh, but metaphorically as the first murderer.)\n\nAs for the commander, when Cutthroat finally does reach the Great\nSleigh--literally the technology of heaven if we accept that the space\npeople are terraforming the world in question to make it more habitable,\nperhaps even after a long nuclear winter--the last entry he records has\nCutthroat \"regaining\" his memory. \"I know who you are,\" he says. \"The small\nplanet is round, and you have come back, and the time for talking into this\nblack box is over. I am going to talk to you face to face. Who is that tall\nman with you? I think he has...wings?\"\n\nBut far from being an avian symbol of regenerative spring as Joan Gordon\nsuggests, the winged creature with commander Adam (the \"you\" being addressed\nby Cutthroat) is much more likely a forbidding presence, who will not allow\nCutthroat to reboard.\n\nGod, of course, has other plans for Cain.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-05-31T23:20:36+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fascinating as always, Borski. A couple of thoughts -- and I have not \nreread the story before bringing these up.\n Man-tru(e) seems a pretty obvious name. Which makes me wonder who \nhe is symbolically. Cain, a true \"fallen\" man, or some kind of Adam figure, \nthe true-man fallen, and perhaps responsible for the winter?\n The fact that the Great Sleigh circles the planet reminds me a lot \nof the Ship of the Severian Quintet. Symbolically the same. But I guess \nthat's obvious....\n\nCutthroat is recording the progress of his quest to catch up to the Great" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sleigh. \"I want to leave a record of what has happened to me, so that if\nsomeone comes for me, and finds me dead, he will understand. I feel that\nsomeone may, though I do not know why. And I want him to understand.\" This \nperson who Cutthroat/Cain senses is looking for him is God, and he knows \nwhy--he's killed Abel--just as he clearly does _not_ want to be \nunderstood. (\"Am I my brother's keeper?\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Not sure here. God gave the mark to protect Cain against someone \nwho, finding him, might kill him. Wolfe's stories can be light or dark, or \nambiguous (duh!). Cutthroat is pursuing the Sleigh. Is he pursuing \nsalvation, however dimly? Unlike Cain, Cutthroat does not go away and stay \naway and set up his own city (his own Garden of Eden). Rather, he is \npursuing the symbolic Church/Heaven. This might be more of a \"redemption of \nCain\" variant, offered by Wolfe. My guess would be that Cuttthroat's \npursuer, to whom he addresses his recording, is God. He is the One who will \ncome for Cutthroat after he is dead.\n Along the same lines, of course, is your last observation: Does \nthe cherub stand to bar Cuttthroat from the Garden/Sleigh/Church, or will \nhe be welcomed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the commander, when Cutthroat finally does reach the Great\nSleigh--literally the technology of heaven if we accept that the space\npeople are terraforming the world in question to make it more habitable,\nperhaps even after a long nuclear winter--the last entry he records has\nCutthroat \"regaining\" his memory. \"I know who you are,\" he says. \"The small\nplanet is round, and you have come back, and the time for talking into this\nblack box is over. I am going to talk to you face to face. Who is that tall\nman with you? I think he has...wings?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " This looks very redemptive to me. Talking into the box symbolizes \nprayer -- he's been talking to someone absent, but who will come for him \nwhen he is dead. When Christ returns, we see him face to face (1 \nCorinthians 13:12).\n Certainly the Bible gives no hint of an ultimately saved Cain, and \nI know of no pseudigraphical literature that does. But it looks to me as if \nWolfe might be playing that trick here.\n But what do you think?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-06-01T04:56:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Huge snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Certainly the Bible gives no hint of an ultimately saved Cain,\nand\nI know of no pseudigraphical literature that does. But it looks to me as\nif\nWolfe might be playing that trick here.\n But what do you think?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Ratty, way back when, someone, maybe you, silenced me on some rant by\npointing out that Cutthroat is loved wherever he goes. By everyone. Even\nwhen he is menaced underground it is the immediate affection that everyone\nseems to feel for him immediately that saves him. How does that follow a\nCain reading? The mark? If so, that needs a bit of explanation.\n\n(Sorry I should look back in the archives, or even in the novella, but it's\njust too much....)\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-03T17:26:18+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nutria then Alga wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Certainly the Bible gives no hint of an ultimately \nsaved Cain, and I know of no pseudigraphical literature\nthat does. But it looks to me as if Wolfe might be\nplaying that trick here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Ratty, way back when, someone, maybe you, silenced me \non some rant by pointing out that Cutthroat is loved \nwherever hegoes. By everyone. Even when he is menaced \nunderground it isthe immediate affection that everyone \nseems to feel for him immediately that saves him. How does \nthat follow a Cain reading? The mark? If so, that needs a\nbit of explanation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Genesis 4:14 \n\tBut the LORD said to him, \"Not so; if anyone kills Cain, \n\the will suffer vengeance seven times over.\" Then the LORD \n\tput a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill \n\thim.\n\nOkay, this is a little ambiguous ... the two statements may\nbe taken as related in (at least) two different ways:\n\n1) The mark effectively informs anyone who finds Cain that God\n will take sevenfold vengeance on anyone who kills him;\n2) the mark in some way directly prevents anyone who finds Cain\n from killing him.\n\n_IF_ we read \"Tracking Song\" as a riff on Cain -- concerning \nwhich I remain not fully convinced -- then we'd have to \nconclude that Mr Wolfe had based his story on the second\ninterpretation." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-05T16:53:10+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nGenesis 4:14 \n\tBut the LORD said to him, \"Not so; if anyone kills Cain, \n\the will suffer vengeance seven times over.\" Then the LORD \n\tput a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill \n\thim.\n\nOkay, this is a little ambiguous ... the two statements may\nbe taken as related in (at least) two different ways:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2) the mark in some way directly prevents anyone who finds Cain\n from killing him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see how that can be a plausible reading, given the bit attributed\nas a direct quote from God. If Cain is given some sort of divine\nprotection that makes it impossible for people to kill him, it would be\npointless to say that anyone who does kill him will suffer vengeance seven\ntimes over.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-05T22:07:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum quoted me & wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) the mark in some way directly prevents anyone who finds Cain\n from killing him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how that can be a plausible reading, given the \nbit attributed as a direct quote from God. If Cain is given some\nsort of divine protection that makes it impossible for people to\nkill him, it would be pointless to say that anyone who does kill\nhim will suffer vengeance seven times over." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yeah; but then God says a lot of things that seem kind of \nredundant over the course of the Bible, and especially in Genesis.\nThis doesn't strike me as an insurmountable problem." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-06-06T09:54:55+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/06/2002 17:53:10 Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Mon, 3 Jun 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Genesis 4:14\n But the LORD said to him, \"Not so; if anyone kills Cain,\n he will suffer vengeance seven times over.\" Then the LORD\n put a mark on Cain so that no one who found him would kill\n him.\n\nOkay, this is a little ambiguous ... the two statements may\nbe taken as related in (at least) two different ways:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "2) the mark in some way directly prevents anyone who finds Cain\n from killing him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see how that can be a plausible reading, given the bit attributed\nas a direct quote from God. If Cain is given some sort of divine\nprotection that makes it impossible for people to kill him, it would be\npointless to say that anyone who does kill him will suffer vengeance\nseven\ntimes over." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup, not to prevent but warn against.\n\nTypical God move, forbid something, threaten dire consequences for\ntransgression, stick up warning signs... and then wait until some smuck\nripe for smiting goes ahead and....\n\nSo maybe Cain is shunned not for the murder of Abel but for the risk he\nposes. Self preservation wrapped up as piety and a small insight into the\nhuman psyche.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-06-06T14:54:41+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Tracking Song", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:07 PM 6/5/2002 -0700, you wrote:\nRostrum quoted me & wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "2) the mark in some way directly prevents anyone who finds Cain\n from killing him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see how that can be a plausible reading, given the\nbit attributed as a direct quote from God. If Cain is given some\nsort of divine protection that makes it impossible for people to\nkill him, it would be pointless to say that anyone who does kill\nhim will suffer vengeance seven times over." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right. But Wolfe may be spinning things a bit differently, as he \nclearly is by granting \"Cain\" redemption. Another note that might be worth \nlooking for. God warns Cain that sin is crouching at the door, and he must \novercome it. Sin is a beast, and this takes up from the serpent in Genesis \n3 -- the Garden of Eden on the east side of Eden is the door into Eden. \nWhat might this have to do with Cuttthroat's relationships with talking \nanimals, and his fighting the beast within himself?\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }