{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3287", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3287, "subject": "Sherry Gold's death", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-05-29T10:56:17+00:00", "last": "2002-05-30T11:54:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-05-29T10:56:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sherry Gold's death", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In response to my post about Mr. Tilly's death, mantis comments" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "About Sherry Gold, Stone Ox wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would counter that the most mysterious thing about Doris's death is why\nshe is in the book in the first place, and that Sherry's death occured\nlong after Weer's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, my understanding is that Sherry died and then \nWeer had a stroke the dayafter. This stroke may or may \nnot have been fatal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced. I see Sherry's death as being one instance of the \n\"everybody is dead\" theme, and Weer's stroke as being the first of\nhis ailments in the afterlife (although it may be a reflection of a real\nstroke that killed him) as in \"... I am very ill. Sicker, I think, than I\nhave ever been before--sicker, even, than I was this winter, before\nEleanor Bold's tree fell.\" In fact, I think Weer had his posthumous\nstroke _because_ Sherry Gold died, and that she was the last \nperson alive who remembered him well.\n\nThe key is the following passage (p. 29 of the Orb edition)\n\"Now ... I feel that she [Weer's mother] lived on and on through whole ages \nof the world, as though she might have lived on forever. (As perhaps \nelsewhere she has.) It is too late for it now, but it seems to me that we \nought to have kept records, by the new generations, of our remoteness from \nevents of high significance. When the last man to have seen some occurrence \nor personality of importance died; and then when the last person who knew him \ndied, and so on. But first, we would have the first man describe this event, \nthis thing he had seen, and when each of them was gone, we would read the \ndescription publicly to see if it still meant anything to us--and if it did \nnot, the series, the chain of linked lives, would be at an end.\"\n\nThis view ties in very well with my interpretation of the story of the geese \nof Lough Conn (is Lough Conn really the Kanakessee?) and the ending of Peace, \nwhere, when the last person to have heard of Weer dies, Weer's ghost reaches \nthe end of his time and, not realizing that all he has to do to reach Heaven \nis repent of his sins and ask Jesus for admission, goes back in time to \nrelive his afterlife. The geese of Lough Conn are the memories of Weer held \nby the living, and the hermit who baptizes the goose is Dan French, who Weer \nfinds instead of the doctors he is looking,\\ for, but who nevertheless gives \nhim the best advice possible. \n\nI set forth this interpretation in more detail in my post of September 7, \n2001, which, either because of its timing or its content, seems to have been \nlargely ignored. And thanks to Michael Straight for his suggestion, obvious \nonce its been made, that the Chinese philosopher's headrest at the end means \nthat Weer will be reliving his afterlife (and not necessarily for the first \ntime).\n\nStone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-05-29T21:41:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sherry Gold's death", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Stone Ox wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not convinced. I see Sherry's death as being one instance of the\n\"everybody is dead\" theme, and Weer's stroke as being the first of\nhis ailments in the afterlife (although it may be a reflection of a real\nstroke that killed him) as in \"... I am very ill. Sicker, I think, than I\nhave ever been before--sicker, even, than I was this winter, before\nEleanor Bold's tree fell.\" In fact, I think Weer had his posthumous\nstroke _because_ Sherry Gold died, and that she was the last\nperson alive who remembered him well." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, okay. Just be sure to mention your variant reading upfront so we can\navoid unnecessary tail-chasing.\n\nSo Sherry's death triggers Weer's wandering? No, just a posthumous stroke,\na turning over in the grave--the wandering is still triggered by the fall\nof the elm (hundreds of years after Sherry's death)?\n\nIf =this= is true, then any post-stroke memories (in the factory, limping;\nthe illness and death of the secretary; the letter from Peacock to Smart on\nthe desktop [?]) are all of the more spacey \"corridors of time\" category,\nlike the visits to Dr. Black (did it ever really happen?) and Dr. Van Ness\n(compilation of many visits boiled down, with bad splices), rather than the\n\"realistic\" category of nearly everything else.\n\nStill, that would be pretty funny: \"Doctor, I've had a stroke!\" \"What, and\nafter you've already died?\" (This humor remains whether the stroke was\nposthumous or note.)\n\nStone Ox also wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I set forth this interpretation in more detail in my post of September 7,\n2001, which, either because of its timing or its content, seems to have been\nlargely ignored. And thanks to Michael Straight for his suggestion, obvious\nonce its been made, that the Chinese philosopher's headrest at the end means\nthat Weer will be reliving his afterlife (and not necessarily for the first\ntime)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if you have addressed this or not, so I'll just go ahead: One\nproblem with the \"recurring loop\" reading of PEACE is that there are clear\nways to signal such a thing: FINNEGANS WAKE (and in genre, DHALGREN) uses a\nsplit sentence, the opening fragment then lining up perfectly with the\nending fragment many hundreds of pages later. The text is a circle, no\nquestion about it.\n\nThe framing structure of PEACE does not really allow such a thing: it is\nquite linear. A. D. Weer starts writing in a notebook (the beginning) and\nthen he stops writing (the end). It would not have been too hard at all\nfor an ending fragment to match up to a beginning fragment, but it did not\nhappen. Nor would it have been difficult if Weer had a notion to express\nhimself in non-writing, through song or sculpture, for example (change of\nmedia, but the same story), but that did not happen, either.\n\nI am not denying that there is a strong sense of recurrance in PEACE, I'm\njust pointing out a potential problem in taking such a recurrance in a\nliteral way as meaning that Weer will do the same thing again, without\nwriting it down.\n\nSpeaking of which, I'm hoping I can get Gene Wolfe to go to the Winchester\nHouse in San Jose, or tag along if he is already going!\n\nOo, even better: get some friends to go dressed up as characters from\nPEACE. Have Sherry Gold wandering around inside Winchester House, bobby\nsocks and all.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n31 copies of \"Snake's-hands\" until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-05-30T11:40:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sherry Gold's death", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In reply to my statement that I thought Sherry died after Weer,\n\nmantis wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stone Ox wrote\nI'm not convinced. I see Sherry's death as being one instance of the\n\"everybody is dead\" theme, and Weer's stroke as being the first of\nhis ailments in the afterlife (although it may be a reflection of a real\nstroke that killed him)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": ",,," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In fact, I think Weer had his posthumous\nstroke _because_ Sherry Gold died, and that she was the last\nperson alive who remembered him well" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So Sherry's death triggers Weer's wandering? No, just a posthumous stroke,\na turning over in the grave--the wandering is still triggered by the fall\nof the elm (hundreds of years after Sherry's death)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The wandering is still triggered by the fall of the elm ... showing real-life \nposthumous events can have an effect on Weer's spirit. Why not Sherry's\ndeath as well?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If =this= is true, then any post-stroke memories (in the factory, limping;\nthe illness and death of the secretary; the letter from Peacock to Smart on\nthe desktop [?]) are all of the more spacey \"corridors of time\" category,\nlike the visits to Dr. Black (did it ever really happen?) and Dr. Van Ness\n(compilation of many visits boiled down, with bad splices), rather than the\n\"realistic\" category of nearly everything else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, I'd say rather that the stroke is filtering back into his recollections \nand\ncoloring them. You have to admit =something= funny is going on with the \nstroke. In real life, when Weer slept with Sherry, he could hardly have \napologized to her for a stroke he had after she died.\n\nI wrote" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And thanks to Michael Straight for his suggestion, obvious once\nit's been made, that the Chinese philosopher's headrest at the end means\nthat Weer will be reliving his afterlife (and not necessarily for the first\ntime)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "mantis replied" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if you have addressed this or not, so I'll just go ahead: One\nproblem with the \"recurring loop\" reading of PEACE is that there are clear\nways to signal such a thing: FINNEGANS WAKE (and in genre, DHALGREN) uses \na split sentence, the opening fragment then lining up perfectly with the\nending fragment many hundreds of pages later. The text is a circle, no\nquestion about it.\n\nThe framing structure of PEACE does not really allow such a thing: it is\nquite linear. A. D. Weer starts writing in a notebook (the beginning) and\nthen he stops writing (the end). It would not have been too hard at all\nfor an ending fragment to match up to a beginning fragment, but it did not\nhappen. Nor would it have been difficult if Weer had a notion to express\nhimself in non-writing, through song or sculpture, for example (change of\nmedia, but the same story), but that did not happen, either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to admit I'm not so sure about the circularity. You could also take \nthe \nhope of resurrection from the Chinese philosopher's pillow as a warning \nagainst belief in reincarnation, and not as a sign that Weer's ghost will \nrelive \nhis afterlife. Given how little I know about Purgatory, I can't even say \nwhich \ninterpretation is more in line with Catholic thought. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of which, I'm hoping I can get Gene Wolfe to go to the Winchester\nHouse in San Jose, or tag along if he is already going!\n\nOo, even better: get some friends to go dressed up as characters from\nPEACE. Have Sherry Gold wandering around inside Winchester House, bobby\nsocks and all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good luck ... that sounds like great fun!\n\nStone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-30T11:54:59+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Sherry Gold's death", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Speaking of which, I'm hoping I can get Gene Wolfe to go to the Winchester\nHouse in San Jose, or tag along if he is already going!\n\nOo, even better: get some friends to go dressed up as characters from\nPEACE. Have Sherry Gold wandering around inside Winchester House, bobby\nsocks and all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ohhhhhh to be there!!!!!!\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] } ] }