{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3288", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3288, "subject": "Cim Glowing", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-05-29T17:29:07+00:00", "last": "2002-05-31T06:10:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-29T17:29:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More \"Tracking Song\" thoughts, this time on Cim Glowing.\n\nThough he risks his life to save Cim Glowing, Cutthroat may be making a\nsignally bad choice, since she is clearly allied against him. Cim Glowing,\nas you will recall, is kidnapped by the minions of Mantru--the fat dwarf who\nrules the underworld metal city and who Dis-like wants a Persephone bride.\nIf you accept that Mantru is Cutthroat's symbolic twin, this may make Cim\nGlowing Awan (Hebrew for \"wickedness\")--the woman who, according to Biblical\ntradition, is not only Cain's sister, but his wife. Notice too how Cutthroat\nchooses \"Wickedness\" over continuing to chase after the Great Sleigh.\n\nCim Glowing has killed her previous boyfriend not once, but twice, implying\nperhaps a cyclical event. It's therefore hard not to see Fishcatcher as the\nFisher King, and the snowbound world/postlapsarian Eden as the Wounded Land.\n(Notice also how Fishcatcher is brought back to life by Great Sleigh\ntechnology--the same technology that is attempting to bring spring to the\nWounded Land.) The father of Cim Glowing originally wanted to call her Seven\nSnows--potent winter imagery to be sure--but her mother has named her Cim\nGlowing when pops is away at parturition. \"Cim\" may refer to Cimmerian\n(darkness) and \"Glowing\" to remnant radiation. Possible implication: nuclear\nwinter has decimated the planet of the animal tribes.\n\nCin Glowing also believes she will not be allowed to board the Great Sleigh,\nwhich makes sense since she represents winter/death and the Great Sleigh\nrepresents spring/renewal. But more insidiously still she attempts to\nconvince Cutthroat that he is not a left-behind member of the snowcraft.\nHere she is indeed \"wicked\"--attempting to stop Cutthroat (who as a former\ntiller of the soil understands the nature of a killing frost) from\nrendezvousing with his people. Equally possible: she loves Cutthroat\n(indeed, she says she does when she leaves him), but knows the two of them\ncan never be together if he achieves his goal.\n\nNot that it matters. In the end, Cim Glowing elects to go her own\nway--perhaps because unlike Cutthroat she understands that winged guardians\nwill not allow her to board the redemption-bringing, planet-saving, Great\nSleigh.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-29T17:39:33+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These posts are fascinating ... I don't know if I \"agree\" with the\noverall interpretation, but it makes a good pile o' sense.\n\nOne quibble:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... this may make Cim Glowing Awan (Hebrew for \"wickedness\") --\nthe woman who, according to Biblical tradition, is not only\nCain's sister, but his wife. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I have no doubt that such a tradition exists, I can find no \ntrace of it, and it certainly isn't \"Biblical\" as I understand the \nword -- full-text searches on both a King James and an NIV produced \nno trace of this. In fact, it's actually kind of a classic \"stump \nthe Bible expert\" question to ask where Cain's wife came from, \nsince the Bible doesn't say anything about it.\n\nI wonder if maybe this is a tradition from Kaballah or Talmud?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-05-29T17:48:58+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, 29 May 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n... this may make Cim Glowing Awan (Hebrew for \"wickedness\") --\nthe woman who, according to Biblical tradition, is not only\nCain's sister, but his wife. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I have no doubt that such a tradition exists, I can find no \ntrace of it, and it certainly isn't \"Biblical\" as I understand the \nword -- " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the Bible says Adam and Eve were the parents of all humanity, and\nCain's wife was human...QED.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-05-29T17:54:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nThese posts are fascinating ... I don't know if I \"agree\" with the\noverall interpretation, but it makes a good pile o' sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do think they are fascinating, but I don't agree:\n\nOr rather, I'd like to agree, but I am not (yet) convinced. These old\nstories have been selected for thousands of years by their \"applicability\"\nin this fashion. This memetic evolution is the source of their \"deep\nspiritual\" meaning.\n\n\nThe only really positive factor is Cutthroat's mark - which has no purpose\nfor being other than as a Mark of Cain, or some such thing.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-29T18:23:11+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Going down the list, ultimately Rostrum will have replied to \nall this ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "... this may make Cim Glowing Awan (Hebrew for \"wickedness\") --\nthe woman who, according to Biblical tradition, is not only\nCain's sister, but his wife. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While I have no doubt that such a tradition exists, I can find no \ntrace of it, and it certainly isn't \"Biblical\" as I understand the \nword -- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the Bible says Adam and Eve were the parents of all humanity, and\nCain's wife was human...QED." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, no ... my point is that there is no mention of an \"Awan\" at all.\n\n--D" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-30T05:55:05+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The cockroach having written:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One quibble:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... this may make Cim Glowing Awan (Hebrew for \"wickedness\") --\nthe woman who, according to Biblical tradition, is not only\nCain's sister, but his wife." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While I have no doubt that such a tradition exists, I can find no\ntrace of it, and it certainly isn't \"Biblical\" as I understand the\nword -- full-text searches on both a King James and an NIV produced\nno trace of this. In fact, it's actually kind of a classic \"stump\nthe Bible expert\" question to ask where Cain's wife came from,\nsince the Bible doesn't say anything about it.\n\nI wonder if maybe this is a tradition from Kaballah or Talmud?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's from the Book of Jubilees (Chapter 4: Verse 9): \"And in the sixth week\n[Adam] begat his daughter Azura. And Cain took Awan his sister to be his\nwife and she bare him Enoch at the close of the fourth jubilee. And in the\nfirst year of the first week of the fifth jubilee, houses were built on the\nearth, and Cain built a city, and called its name after the name of his son\nEnoch.\"\n\nAzura, the other daughter, becomes the wife of Seth. It's from a suspect\nsource, I admit , but surely not all of the Pseudepigrapha are\ntainted--especially Jubilees, which was allegedly written by the Lawgiver\nhimself.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-05-30T16:13:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apologies to those bored by such things..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While I have no doubt that such a tradition exists, I can find no\ntrace of it, and it certainly isn't \"Biblical\" as I understand the\nword -- full-text searches on both a King James and an NIV produced\nno trace of this. In fact, it's actually kind of a classic \"stump\nthe Bible expert\" question to ask where Cain's wife came from,\nsince the Bible doesn't say anything about it.\n\nI wonder if maybe this is a tradition from Kaballah or Talmud?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's from the Book of Jubilees (Chapter 4: Verse 9): " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[quote deleted but fascinating]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... surely not all of the Pseudepigrapha are tainted --\nespecially Jubilees, which was allegedly written by \nthe Lawgiver himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that gets kind of problematic ... for example, we have \na Gospel (really just a collection of kerygma) that was \nallegedly written by Thomas, but is clearly Gnostic in its \ncontent and rejected from the canon of every orthodox church. \nOn the other feeler, there are books which are universally \naccepted by the churches and are of highly doubtful authorship,\nsuch as some of the epistles traditionally attributed to Paul.\n\nI've never read Jubilees, and don't know of any church, or \nsynagogue, for that matter, which considers it to be canon \n(though it is cited in several of the canonical texts...); I \nthus claim that my basic statement above (that this is not a \n\"biblical tradition\") stands unaltered.\n\nWhen you say it is attributed to \"the Lawgiver,\" are you \nreferring to Moses, or to the Deuteronomist, or ...\n\nOb.LupineContent: I've said it before, but I think that it's\nmore appropriate than ever here ... I think that YA of the \nmany things several of Wolfe's books are \"about\" is an attempt \nto provide, in a non-Biblical context, an experience similar\nto that of a Biblical exegete attempting to determine the \nhistorical facts lying behind a given text, divinely inspired\nbut written by one or more humans, edited and redacted by many\nhumans, transcribed and translated by humans ... any or all of \nwhom may have not only inserted their own errors, but added or\nsuppressed matter suited to their own agendae ... all of this\nguided by the assumption that the Holy Spirit, as the true \nAuthor, ensures that the truth the text is to convey (though \nnot necessarily the historical facticity of the narrative \ncontent) is preserved incorrupt ... Wolfe stands in precisely \nthis relation to his many fallible and unreliable narrators; \nwhat _Wolfe_ wishes to convey, is conveyed, however obscurely, \ndespite -- and even because of! -- his narrators' varoius \ntransformations, suppresisions, distortions, and occasional\noutright lies." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-05-31T06:10:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Cim Glowing", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid having rebutted:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've never read Jubilees, and don't know of any church, or\nsynagogue, for that matter, which considers it to be canon\n(though it is cited in several of the canonical texts...); I\nthus claim that my basic statement above (that this is not a\n\"biblical tradition\") stands unaltered." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No argument there, and I should probably have used something a little more\nqualitative like \"according to non-canon tradition\" or \"according to the\nBook of Jubilees\" when I talked about the Qayin-Awan connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When you say it is attributed to \"the Lawgiver,\" are you\nreferring to Moses, or to the Deuteronomist, or ..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To Moses, who supposedly received Jubilees as a revelation from the Angel of\nthe Presence.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] } ] }