{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3297", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3297, "subject": "War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "messages": 7, "voices": 4, "first": "1998-01-01T11:28:11+00:00", "last": "2002-06-10T18:42:28+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-07T02:10:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "First off, I'd just like to say hello, being a newcomer to the list.\nThat said, I've scanned the archives and didn't notice anything on the\nfollowing sentiment.\n\nThe more I look at it, it seems to me that the war between the\nCommonwealth and the Ascians in TBOTNS is something of a \"proxy war\"\nbetween the giants and the angels (or whatever Tzadkiel is). After all,\nUrth being fairly technically backwards, both sides need to import their\nweapons. Since Erebus, Abaia, and company are arming the Ascians, and\nthe \"good\" aliens are arming the armies of the Autarch, I can't see it\nas anything more than the two sides duking it out with human soldiers.\nI mean, they talk a good game, telling the autarch that he's the\nrightful ruler of urth, but it still makes the autarch look like more of\na pawn than any kind of rightful ruler should be.\n\nDoes Wolfe want us to assume that the angelic beings have our best\ninterests at heart, or is there more to it?\n\nWhile on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found\nsomething else peculiar. Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and\n_Short Sun_ we can glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the\nHoly Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of\nJesus being taken off the cross). So why on earth do we have an angel\nriding around as the captain of spaceships? It seems like a pretty cool\nship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?\n\nJust some thoughts I was hoping the group could give some input on.\n\nAndrew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-07T15:49:48+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wrote:\nThe more I look at it, it seems to me that the war between the\nCommonwealth and the Ascians in TBOTNS is something of a \"proxy war\"\nbetween the giants and the angels (or whatever Tzadkiel is)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I'd not thought of it in those terms, I guess you could in\nfact describe it that way. But then, from the Catholic point of\nview (which is, as you point out, Wolfe's as well as mine own),\nthe whole world is a \"proxy war\" between God/the angels and \nSatan/the devils. This is one of the primary roles in the Roman \nCatholic Church's (RCC's) self-description: we are the Church \nMilitant. This \"proxy war\" is generally held to take place \nprimarily on the \"battleground\" of the individual human soul, \nand in this form is referred to as \"spiritual warfare;\" but on \noccasion, it is clearly externalized. Not only in obvious ways, \nlike the proper Crusades, but activities such as the late Mother \nTeresa's Calcutta mission would also be considered an external \nmanifestation of the activity of the Church Militant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After all, Urth being fairly technically backwards, both sides\nneed to import their weapons. Since Erebus, Abaia, and company\nare arming the Ascians, and the \"good\" aliens are arming the\narmies of the Autarch, I can't see it as anything more than the\ntwo sides duking it out with human soldiers. I mean, they talk\na good game, telling the autarch that he's the rightful ruler\nof urth, but it still makes the autarch look like more of a\npawn than any kind of rightful ruler should be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, now, here we have an additional aspect: I would suggest\nstrongly that Wolfe is drawing upon his own experiences in one\nof the proxy wars that (in my opinion) constituted WWIII: he \nwas a soldier in the Korean \"police action,\" which was, of course,\njust such a proxy war between the US and the CCCP. Much of what \nyou say applies, or has been claimed to apply, to the proxy wars\nin which Ivan met G.I. Joe (two points for the reference). For\nexample, critics claimed that the rulers of the proxy nations \nwere puppets of the principals -- of course, each of the principals \nclaimed that their ally was the \"legitimate government\" and the \nother's ally was a puppet and a stalking horse for the other \nprincipal's aggression. And, of course, each principal provided\nits ally/puppet with munitions and \"military advisors.\"\n\nBut we can also apply this at the level of the angels/devils proxy \nwar. Analogically speaking, the RCC point of view says that each \nhuman person begins as a state with a legitimate and independent \ngovernment (\"soul\" and \"free will\") which is, however, suborned \nalmost from its inception by the side the RCC (\"original sin\") \nwould consider the Evil Empire. The Good Guys provide assistance\nin the form of arms (\"grace\") and advice (scripture, dogma, etc.).\nThe individual state is expected to do as much of his/her own fighting\nas s/he can, but the RCC recognizes that at certain critical times,\ndirect intervention by the principal may be required. A mechanism\nfor communication with the principal, including requests for aid,\nhas been provided (\"prayer\"); further, each individual state is \nboth enabled and expected to help other embattled states (\"the\ncommunion of saints\") who are joined in a grand alliance (\"the\nChurch Militant\") against the Enemy. The continued presence of \nenemy agents in the government causes the state to perform some\nacts against its best interest; with allied aid, the state is to\nseek continually to root out and expel these agents (\"self-\nexamination,\" \"confession,\" \"penitence\").\n\nGoodness, that was a bit more long-winded than I intended... my\napologies. Onward:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Wolfe want us to assume that the angelic beings have our best\ninterests at heart, or is there more to it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not have a clear answer to that, but can answer a variation\non the question: I think Wolfe clearly wants us to assume that,\nwhatever the motives of the angelic beings may be, humanity's best \ninterests are best served by allying with the hieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found\nsomething else peculiar. Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and\n_Short Sun_ we can glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the\nHoly Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of\nJesus being taken off the cross). So why on earth do we have an angel\nriding around as the captain of spaceships? It seems like a \npretty cool ship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...because:\n\n(1) this is a science fiction story, after all, and Wolfe goes out\n of his way to provide stfnal explanations for the miraculous.\n(2) the ship isn't for Tzadkiel's benefit (in fact, if I recall\n correctly, the ship is a manifestaton of Tzadkiel), but for the\n benefit of the passengers and crew." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Crush", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-06-07T18:21:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hey, I'm also new. The Acian War *could* be thought of as a proxy war, but\nit could just as easily be viewed as a resistance war against an occupying\nforce. If there is any correlation between the Acian War and the War of\nHeaven, THAT is certainly closer to the way I've always viewed my Christian\nparticipation. Actually the word \"pagan\" (according to Henry Chadwick) was a\nRoman military term for \"civilian\"-so a pagan was one who had yet to become\ninvolved in the war.\n\nIn this light, the Acians could be viewed as a fifth column brigade. The\nhieros seem to view themselves as our \"descendents\". Who knows the true\npedigree of Erebus and Abaia? The Hieros seem likely to have a better claim\nto having a legitimate stake in Urth than they do. I've always seen the\nHieros as protecting mankind's legitimate destiny from invaders trying to\nsupplant it with their own vision. Am I off-base?\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]\nSent: Friday, June 07, 2002 10:50 AM\nTo: 'urth at urth.net'\nSubject: RE: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?\n\nWelcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You wrote:\nThe more I look at it, it seems to me that the war between the\nCommonwealth and the Ascians in TBOTNS is something of a \"proxy war\"\nbetween the giants and the angels (or whatever Tzadkiel is)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While I'd not thought of it in those terms, I guess you could in\nfact describe it that way. But then, from the Catholic point of\nview (which is, as you point out, Wolfe's as well as mine own),\nthe whole world is a \"proxy war\" between God/the angels and\nSatan/the devils. This is one of the primary roles in the Roman\nCatholic Church's (RCC's) self-description: we are the Church\nMilitant. This \"proxy war\" is generally held to take place\nprimarily on the \"battleground\" of the individual human soul,\nand in this form is referred to as \"spiritual warfare;\" but on\noccasion, it is clearly externalized. Not only in obvious ways,\nlike the proper Crusades, but activities such as the late Mother\nTeresa's Calcutta mission would also be considered an external\nmanifestation of the activity of the Church Militant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "After all, Urth being fairly technically backwards, both sides\nneed to import their weapons. Since Erebus, Abaia, and company\nare arming the Ascians, and the \"good\" aliens are arming the\narmies of the Autarch, I can't see it as anything more than the\ntwo sides duking it out with human soldiers. I mean, they talk\na good game, telling the autarch that he's the rightful ruler\nof urth, but it still makes the autarch look like more of a\npawn than any kind of rightful ruler should be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, now, here we have an additional aspect: I would suggest\nstrongly that Wolfe is drawing upon his own experiences in one\nof the proxy wars that (in my opinion) constituted WWIII: he\nwas a soldier in the Korean \"police action,\" which was, of course,\njust such a proxy war between the US and the CCCP. Much of what\nyou say applies, or has been claimed to apply, to the proxy wars\nin which Ivan met G.I. Joe (two points for the reference). For\nexample, critics claimed that the rulers of the proxy nations\nwere puppets of the principals -- of course, each of the principals\nclaimed that their ally was the \"legitimate government\" and the\nother's ally was a puppet and a stalking horse for the other\nprincipal's aggression. And, of course, each principal provided\nits ally/puppet with munitions and \"military advisors.\"\n\nBut we can also apply this at the level of the angels/devils proxy\nwar. Analogically speaking, the RCC point of view says that each\nhuman person begins as a state with a legitimate and independent\ngovernment (\"soul\" and \"free will\") which is, however, suborned\nalmost from its inception by the side the RCC (\"original sin\")\nwould consider the Evil Empire. The Good Guys provide assistance\nin the form of arms (\"grace\") and advice (scripture, dogma, etc.).\nThe individual state is expected to do as much of his/her own fighting\nas s/he can, but the RCC recognizes that at certain critical times,\ndirect intervention by the principal may be required. A mechanism\nfor communication with the principal, including requests for aid,\nhas been provided (\"prayer\"); further, each individual state is\nboth enabled and expected to help other embattled states (\"the\ncommunion of saints\") who are joined in a grand alliance (\"the\nChurch Militant\") against the Enemy. The continued presence of\nenemy agents in the government causes the state to perform some\nacts against its best interest; with allied aid, the state is to\nseek continually to root out and expel these agents (\"self-\nexamination,\" \"confession,\" \"penitence\").\n\nGoodness, that was a bit more long-winded than I intended... my\napologies. Onward:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does Wolfe want us to assume that the angelic beings have our best\ninterests at heart, or is there more to it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do not have a clear answer to that, but can answer a variation\non the question: I think Wolfe clearly wants us to assume that,\nwhatever the motives of the angelic beings may be, humanity's best\ninterests are best served by allying with the hieros." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found\nsomething else peculiar. Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and\n_Short Sun_ we can glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the\nHoly Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of\nJesus being taken off the cross). So why on earth do we have an angel\nriding around as the captain of spaceships? It seems like a\npretty cool ship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...because:\n\n(1) this is a science fiction story, after all, and Wolfe goes out\n of his way to provide stfnal explanations for the miraculous.\n(2) the ship isn't for Tzadkiel's benefit (in fact, if I recall\n correctly, the ship is a manifestaton of Tzadkiel), but for the\n benefit of the passengers and crew." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-09T00:58:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Responding to two different replies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crush wrote:\nHey, I'm also new. The Acian War *could* be thought of as a proxy war, but\nit could just as easily be viewed as a resistance war against an occupying\nforce." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That makes sense, as could the interpretation that the Ascians are\nsomewhat\nequivalent to, say Communist revolutionaries who are trying to supplant\nthe\nrightful rulers of Urth with their (well, actually, the giants') own\ntwisted\ntotalitarianism. So maybe the Autarchs' wars could be seen as a counter\ninsurgency, as it were." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there is any correlation between the Acian War and the War of\nHeaven, THAT is certainly closer to the way I've always viewed my Christian\nparticipation. Actually the word \"pagan\" (according to Henry Chadwick) was a\nRoman military term for \"civilian\"-so a pagan was one who had yet to become\ninvolved in the war." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going to throw in a bit of pedantry here. The origin of \"pagan\"\ncame from\n\"paganus\" meaning \"rube\" or \"rustic.\" Since Christianity started in the\ncities,\neventually, the term for country dweller came to be associated with that\nof\nthose who still clung to the old rites." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this light, the Acians could be viewed as a fifth column brigade. The\nhieros seem to view themselves as our \"descendents\". Who knows the true\npedigree of Erebus and Abaia? The Hieros seem likely to have a better claim\nto having a legitimate stake in Urth than they do. I've always seen the\nHieros as protecting mankind's legitimate destiny from invaders trying to\nsupplant it with their own vision." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as far as I understand it, that's the case. Indeed, the more I\nthink\nabout it, that seems to be seen as the case on Urth as well. Even Agia\ncould\nsee that submitting to the Ascian way of life would be a very Bad Thing.\nIndeed, given that the whole nature of the Ascians seems so deeply\nwrong, it is\nactually rather doubtful as to how the giants sold their ancestors on\nthe whole\ndeal anyway. I think Vodalus provides us an answer, though. The giants\noffer\nall kinds of shiny techno-toys and a stable system that is free of\nstrife. By\nthe time it's been implemented, though, it's too late to go back and\nyour the\nbrainwashed slave of an aquatic giant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Welcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is the above sound effect to indicate the airlock closing behind me? :)\n\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, now, here we have an additional aspect: I would suggest\nstrongly that Wolfe is drawing upon his own experiences in one\nof the proxy wars that (in my opinion) constituted WWIII: he\nwas a soldier in the Korean \"police action,\" which was, of course,\njust such a proxy war between the US and the CCCP. Much of what\nyou say applies, or has been claimed to apply, to the proxy wars\nin which Ivan met G.I. Joe (two points for the reference). For\nexample, critics claimed that the rulers of the proxy nations\nwere puppets of the principals -- of course, each of the principals\nclaimed that their ally was the \"legitimate government\" and the\nother's ally was a puppet and a stalking horse for the other\nprincipal's aggression. And, of course, each principal provided\nits ally/puppet with munitions and \"military advisors.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That brings up another thought. The Ascians are definitely baddies. \nBut if\nErebus is, say Kim Il Song, it leaves the question as to whether or not\nthere\nhave been Autarchs with less than a stellar character, say Pak Choong\nHi's to\nErebus. I mean, granted, they've got something of a de facto conscience\nin that\nthere's a ton of voices inside their heads giving them all kinds of\nadvice, but\nwhat about the occasional bad apple? If one wanted to take the\nspiritual\nanalogy further, one can note that there have been bad clergy and some\nrotten\npopes, even though the cause was still just." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "While on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found\nsomething else peculiar. Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and\n_Short Sun_ we can glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the\nHoly Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of\nJesus being taken off the cross). So why on earth do we have an angel\nriding around as the captain of spaceships? It seems like a\npretty cool ship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...because:\n\n(1) this is a science fiction story, after all, and Wolfe goes out\n of his way to provide stfnal explanations for the miraculous.\n(2) the ship isn't for Tzadkiel's benefit (in fact, if I recall\n correctly, the ship is a manifestaton of Tzadkiel), but for the\n benefit of the passengers and crew." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The second especially makes a great deal of sense. After all, OT angels\nappear\nin fiery chariots even though they don't exactly need chariots to get\nthem from\nplace to place.\n\nThanks for the input.\n\nAndrew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-10T17:52:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Welcome, Crush.\n\nYou wrote..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hey, I'm also new. The Acian War *could* be thought of as a proxy war,\nbut it could just as easily be viewed as a resistance war against \nan occupying force. If there is any correlation between the Acian War\nand the War of Heaven, THAT is certainly closer to the way I've always \nviewed my Christian participation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. A big help with understanding this concept when I was much\nyounger was John Donne's sonnet \"Batter my heart, three-person'd God,\"\nwhich is one of the most vivid presentations of \"spiritual warfare\"\nand the fight to retake the \"occupied\" territory of the human soul,\nwhich I have ever encountered." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually the word \"pagan\" (according to Henry Chadwick) was a\nRoman military term for \"civilian\"-so a pagan was one who had \nyet to become involved in the war." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not knowing from Henry Chadwick. Merriam-Webster's online\ngives this for the etymology of Pagan:\n\n Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin,\n country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to\n Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT\n\nUnder PACT, we find this:\n\n Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin pactum,\n from neuter of pactus, past participle of pacisci to\n agree, contract; akin to Old English fOn to seize, Latin\n pax peace, pangere to fix, fasten, Greek pEgnynai\n\nSo, wow: \"pagan\" turns out to be related to \"peace.\" But,\nmore to the point, Andrew's \"bit of pedantry\" seems to be\npretty accurate.\n\nWhich doesn't really make any problems with this:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In this light, the Acians could be viewed as a fifth column \nbrigade. The hieros seem to view themselves as our \"descendents\".\nWho knows the true pedigree of Erebus and Abaia? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, right. There's hints in tBotNS that they're alien, though\nI can't recall an explicit statement on the subject. TBotSS\nseems to suggest that Scylla, at least, is related to the \"Mother\" \nof Blue." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-10T18:42:28+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew responded to Crush..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Even Agia could see that submitting to the Ascian way of life would\nbe a very Bad Thing. Indeed, given that the whole nature of the\nAscians seems so deeply wrong, it is actually rather doubtful as to\nhow the giants sold their ancestors on the whole deal anyway. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, an important point, which should not be glossed over, is \nSeverian's experience with Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. It's\nclear that, despite the breeding for docility and superior mind \ncontrol techniques available to the rulers of Ascians, the human\nspirit, so to speak, perseveres. The Ascians are not utterly-lost\nminions of Hell; they are citizens of a system/state that appears\nto us to be worse than that of the Commonwealth -- but its\nappearance to us is based on information filtered through the \nperceptions of the citizens of the Commonwealth.\n\nI think, in fact, it's safe to say that Mr Wolfe would regard \nthe system of the Commonwealth as \"better\" than that of Ascia;\nbut we have to be careful not to take that to mean that the\nsystem of the Commonwealth is \"good\" or the system of Ascia\n\"evil\" -- just that the Commonwealth is less evil than Ascia.\n\n(Nonetheless, the relationship between the Autarchs and the\nHieros does seem to suggest that there is a literalizing of\nthe \"divine right of kings\" theory going on here.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Vodalus provides us an answer, though. The giants offer\nall kinds of shiny techno-toys and a stable system that is free\nof strife. By the time it's been implemented, though, it's too\nlate to go back and your the brainwashed slave of an aquatic giant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, they also offer power for the few. Not an inducement to\nbe despised.\n\n\nThen he responded to me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Welcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is the above sound effect to indicate the airlock closing \nbehind me? :)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, just a traditional blattidaean greeting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That brings up another thought. The Ascians are definitely baddies. \nBut if Erebus is, say Kim Il Song, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, whoa, hee-haw, stop right there. The analogy I was drawing\nthere almost certainly does _not_ apply at the level of equating \nfictional character X to historical character X'. I was suggesting\nrather that Mr Wolfe's actual experience in such a proxy-war might \nmake him more likely to portray such a war in his fiction, and \npointing out some specific features that make me think that the\nwar between the Commonwealth and Ascia is such a portrayal, and is\ncolored by Mr Wolfe's experiences. But to try to draw character-level\nallegorical correspondences seems to me on about the level that tries\nto draw such correspondences from _The Lord of the Rings_ to World\nWar II." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-01-01T11:28:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \n\nI think, in fact, it's safe to say that Mr Wolfe would regard\nthe system of the Commonwealth as \"better\" than that of Ascia;\nbut we have to be careful not to take that to mean that the\nsystem of the Commonwealth is \"good\" or the system of Ascia\n\"evil\" -- just that the Commonwealth is less evil than Ascia." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um, I don't agree.\n\n\nWell, technically, yes. But the Ascian state is the ultimate socialist\nstate, and is meant to be the apex of purely human horror possible.\n\nYou are right about the human spirit enduring, of course, but let's not fool\nourselves about Wolfe's intent.\n\n hartshorn" } ] } ] }