# War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?

*The Urth list — 7 messages, 4 voices, 01 Jan 1998*

<https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3297>

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### Andrew Reeves
*07 Jun 2002, 02:10*

First off, I'd just like to say hello, being a newcomer to the list.
That said, I've scanned the archives and didn't notice anything on the
following sentiment.

The more I look at it, it seems to me that the war between the
Commonwealth and the Ascians in TBOTNS is something of a "proxy war"
between the giants and the angels (or whatever Tzadkiel is).  After all,
Urth being fairly technically backwards, both sides need to import their
weapons.  Since Erebus, Abaia, and company are arming the Ascians, and
the "good" aliens are arming the armies of the Autarch, I can't see it
as anything more than the two sides duking it out with human soldiers.
I mean, they talk a good game, telling the autarch that he's the
rightful ruler of urth, but it still makes the autarch look like more of
a pawn than any kind of rightful ruler should be.

Does Wolfe want us to assume that the angelic beings have our best
interests at heart, or is there more to it?

While on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found
something else peculiar.  Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and
_Short Sun_ we can  glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the
Holy Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of
Jesus being taken off the cross).  So why on earth do we have an angel
riding around as the captain of spaceships?  It seems like a pretty cool
ship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?

Just some thoughts I was hoping the group could give some input on.

Andrew

---

### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
*07 Jun 2002, 15:49 · follows Andrew Reeves*

Welcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click.

> You wrote:
> The more I look at it, it seems to me that the war between the
> Commonwealth and the Ascians in TBOTNS is something of a "proxy war"
> between the giants and the angels (or whatever Tzadkiel is).

While I'd not thought of it in those terms, I guess you could in
fact describe it that way. But then, from the Catholic point of
view (which is, as you point out, Wolfe's as well as mine own),
the whole world is a "proxy war" between God/the angels and 
Satan/the devils. This is one of the primary roles in the Roman 
Catholic Church's (RCC's) self-description: we are the Church 
Militant. This "proxy war" is generally held to take place 
primarily on the "battleground" of the individual human soul, 
and in this form is referred to as "spiritual warfare;" but on 
occasion, it is clearly externalized. Not only in obvious ways, 
like the proper Crusades, but activities such as the late Mother 
Teresa's Calcutta mission would also be considered an external 
manifestation of the activity of the Church Militant.

> After all, Urth being fairly technically backwards, both sides
> need to import their weapons. Since Erebus, Abaia, and company
> are arming the Ascians, and the "good" aliens are arming the
> armies of the Autarch, I can't see it as anything more than the
> two sides duking it out with human soldiers. I mean, they talk
> a good game, telling the autarch that he's the rightful ruler
> of urth, but it still makes the autarch look like more of a
> pawn than any kind of rightful ruler should be.

Well, now, here we have an additional aspect: I would suggest
strongly that Wolfe is drawing upon his own experiences in one
of the proxy wars that (in my opinion) constituted WWIII: he 
was a soldier in the Korean "police action," which was, of course,
just such a proxy war between the US and the CCCP. Much of what 
you say applies, or has been claimed to apply, to the proxy wars
in which Ivan met G.I. Joe (two points for the reference). For
example, critics claimed that the rulers of the proxy nations 
were puppets of the principals -- of course, each of the principals 
claimed that their ally was the "legitimate government" and the 
other's ally was a puppet and a stalking horse for the other 
principal's aggression. And, of course, each principal provided
its ally/puppet with munitions and "military advisors."

But we can also apply this at the level of the angels/devils proxy 
war. Analogically speaking, the RCC point of view says that each 
human person begins as a state with a legitimate and independent 
government ("soul" and "free will") which is, however, suborned 
almost from its inception by the side the RCC ("original sin") 
would consider the Evil Empire. The Good Guys provide assistance
in the form of arms ("grace") and advice (scripture, dogma, etc.).
The individual state is expected to do as much of his/her own fighting
as s/he can, but the RCC recognizes that at certain critical times,
direct intervention by the principal may be required. A mechanism
for communication with the principal, including requests for aid,
has been provided ("prayer"); further, each individual state is 
both enabled and expected to help other embattled states ("the
communion of saints") who are joined in a grand alliance ("the
Church Militant") against the Enemy. The continued presence of 
enemy agents in the government causes the state to perform some
acts against its best interest; with allied aid, the state is to
seek continually to root out and expel these agents ("self-
examination," "confession," "penitence").

Goodness, that was a bit more long-winded than I intended... my
apologies. Onward:

> Does Wolfe want us to assume that the angelic beings have our best
> interests at heart, or is there more to it?

I do not have a clear answer to that, but can answer a variation
on the question: I think Wolfe clearly wants us to assume that,
whatever the motives of the angelic beings may be, humanity's best 
interests are best served by allying with the hieros.

> While on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found
> something else peculiar.  Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and
> _Short Sun_ we can  glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the
> Holy Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of
> Jesus being taken off the cross).  So why on earth do we have an angel
> riding around as the captain of spaceships?  It seems like a 
> pretty cool ship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?

...because:

(1) this is a science fiction story, after all, and Wolfe goes out
    of his way to provide stfnal explanations for the miraculous.
(2) the ship isn't for Tzadkiel's benefit (in fact, if I recall
    correctly, the ship is a manifestaton of Tzadkiel), but for the
    benefit of the passengers and crew.

---

### Crush
*07 Jun 2002, 18:21 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes*

Hey, I'm also new. The Acian War *could* be thought of as a proxy war, but
it could just as easily be viewed as a resistance war against an occupying
force. If there is any correlation between the Acian War and the War of
Heaven, THAT is certainly closer to the way I've always viewed my Christian
participation. Actually the word "pagan" (according to Henry Chadwick) was a
Roman military term for "civilian"-so a pagan was one who had yet to become
involved in the war.

In this light, the Acians could be viewed as a fifth column brigade. The
hieros seem to view themselves as our "descendents". Who knows the true
pedigree of Erebus and Abaia? The Hieros seem likely to have a better claim
to having a legitimate stake in Urth than they do. I've always seen the
Hieros as protecting mankind's legitimate destiny from invaders trying to
supplant it with their own vision. Am I off-base?

-----Original Message-----
From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com]
Sent: Friday, June 07, 2002 10:50 AM
To: 'urth at urth.net'
Subject: RE: (urth) War With The Ascians as a Proxy War?

Welcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click.

> You wrote:
> The more I look at it, it seems to me that the war between the
> Commonwealth and the Ascians in TBOTNS is something of a "proxy war"
> between the giants and the angels (or whatever Tzadkiel is).

While I'd not thought of it in those terms, I guess you could in
fact describe it that way. But then, from the Catholic point of
view (which is, as you point out, Wolfe's as well as mine own),
the whole world is a "proxy war" between God/the angels and
Satan/the devils. This is one of the primary roles in the Roman
Catholic Church's (RCC's) self-description: we are the Church
Militant. This "proxy war" is generally held to take place
primarily on the "battleground" of the individual human soul,
and in this form is referred to as "spiritual warfare;" but on
occasion, it is clearly externalized. Not only in obvious ways,
like the proper Crusades, but activities such as the late Mother
Teresa's Calcutta mission would also be considered an external
manifestation of the activity of the Church Militant.

> After all, Urth being fairly technically backwards, both sides
> need to import their weapons. Since Erebus, Abaia, and company
> are arming the Ascians, and the "good" aliens are arming the
> armies of the Autarch, I can't see it as anything more than the
> two sides duking it out with human soldiers. I mean, they talk
> a good game, telling the autarch that he's the rightful ruler
> of urth, but it still makes the autarch look like more of a
> pawn than any kind of rightful ruler should be.

Well, now, here we have an additional aspect: I would suggest
strongly that Wolfe is drawing upon his own experiences in one
of the proxy wars that (in my opinion) constituted WWIII: he
was a soldier in the Korean "police action," which was, of course,
just such a proxy war between the US and the CCCP. Much of what
you say applies, or has been claimed to apply, to the proxy wars
in which Ivan met G.I. Joe (two points for the reference). For
example, critics claimed that the rulers of the proxy nations
were puppets of the principals -- of course, each of the principals
claimed that their ally was the "legitimate government" and the
other's ally was a puppet and a stalking horse for the other
principal's aggression. And, of course, each principal provided
its ally/puppet with munitions and "military advisors."

But we can also apply this at the level of the angels/devils proxy
war. Analogically speaking, the RCC point of view says that each
human person begins as a state with a legitimate and independent
government ("soul" and "free will") which is, however, suborned
almost from its inception by the side the RCC ("original sin")
would consider the Evil Empire. The Good Guys provide assistance
in the form of arms ("grace") and advice (scripture, dogma, etc.).
The individual state is expected to do as much of his/her own fighting
as s/he can, but the RCC recognizes that at certain critical times,
direct intervention by the principal may be required. A mechanism
for communication with the principal, including requests for aid,
has been provided ("prayer"); further, each individual state is
both enabled and expected to help other embattled states ("the
communion of saints") who are joined in a grand alliance ("the
Church Militant") against the Enemy. The continued presence of
enemy agents in the government causes the state to perform some
acts against its best interest; with allied aid, the state is to
seek continually to root out and expel these agents ("self-
examination," "confession," "penitence").

Goodness, that was a bit more long-winded than I intended... my
apologies. Onward:

> Does Wolfe want us to assume that the angelic beings have our best
> interests at heart, or is there more to it?

I do not have a clear answer to that, but can answer a variation
on the question: I think Wolfe clearly wants us to assume that,
whatever the motives of the angelic beings may be, humanity's best
interests are best served by allying with the hieros.

> While on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found
> something else peculiar.  Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and
> _Short Sun_ we can  glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the
> Holy Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of
> Jesus being taken off the cross).  So why on earth do we have an angel
> riding around as the captain of spaceships?  It seems like a
> pretty cool ship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?

...because:

(1) this is a science fiction story, after all, and Wolfe goes out
    of his way to provide stfnal explanations for the miraculous.
(2) the ship isn't for Tzadkiel's benefit (in fact, if I recall
    correctly, the ship is a manifestaton of Tzadkiel), but for the
    benefit of the passengers and crew.

```
-- 
```

---

### Andrew Reeves
*09 Jun 2002, 00:58 · follows Crush*

Responding to two different replies:

> Crush wrote:
> Hey, I'm also new. The Acian War *could* be thought of as a proxy war, but
> it could just as easily be viewed as a resistance war against an occupying
> force.

That makes sense, as could the interpretation that the Ascians are
somewhat
equivalent to, say Communist revolutionaries who are trying to supplant
the
rightful rulers of Urth with their (well, actually, the giants') own
twisted
totalitarianism.  So maybe the Autarchs' wars could be seen as a counter
insurgency, as it were.

> If there is any correlation between the Acian War and the War of
> Heaven, THAT is certainly closer to the way I've always viewed my Christian
> participation. Actually the word "pagan" (according to Henry Chadwick) was a
> Roman military term for "civilian"-so a pagan was one who had yet to become
> involved in the war.

I'm going to throw in a bit of pedantry here.  The origin of "pagan"
came from
"paganus" meaning "rube" or "rustic."  Since Christianity started in the
cities,
eventually, the term for country dweller came to be associated with that
of
those who still clung to the old rites.

> In this light, the Acians could be viewed as a fifth column brigade. The
> hieros seem to view themselves as our "descendents". Who knows the true
> pedigree of Erebus and Abaia? The Hieros seem likely to have a better claim
> to having a legitimate stake in Urth than they do. I've always seen the
> Hieros as protecting mankind's legitimate destiny from invaders trying to
> supplant it with their own vision.

Well, as far as I understand it, that's the case.  Indeed, the more I
think
about it, that seems to be seen as the case on Urth as well.  Even Agia
could
see that submitting to the Ascian way of life would be a very Bad Thing.
Indeed, given that the whole nature of the Ascians seems so deeply
wrong, it is
actually rather doubtful as to how the giants sold their ancestors on
the whole
deal anyway.  I think Vodalus provides us an answer, though.  The giants
offer
all kinds of shiny techno-toys and a stable system that is free of
strife.  By
the time it's been implemented, though, it's too late to go back and
your the
brainwashed slave of an aquatic giant.

> Welcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click.

Is the above sound effect to indicate the airlock closing behind me?  :)

<snip excellent analogy of Ascian War as a parallel to earthly warfare
of devils
and angels>

> Well, now, here we have an additional aspect: I would suggest
> strongly that Wolfe is drawing upon his own experiences in one
> of the proxy wars that (in my opinion) constituted WWIII: he
> was a soldier in the Korean "police action," which was, of course,
> just such a proxy war between the US and the CCCP. Much of what
> you say applies, or has been claimed to apply, to the proxy wars
> in which Ivan met G.I. Joe (two points for the reference). For
> example, critics claimed that the rulers of the proxy nations
> were puppets of the principals -- of course, each of the principals
> claimed that their ally was the "legitimate government" and the
> other's ally was a puppet and a stalking horse for the other
> principal's aggression. And, of course, each principal provided
> its ally/puppet with munitions and "military advisors."

That brings up another thought.  The Ascians are definitely baddies. 
But if
Erebus is, say Kim Il Song, it leaves the question as to whether or not
there
have been Autarchs with less than a stellar character, say Pak Choong
Hi's to
Erebus.  I mean, granted, they've got something of a de facto conscience
in that
there's a ton of voices inside their heads giving them all kinds of
advice, but
what about the occasional bad apple?  If one wanted to take the
spiritual
analogy further, one can note that there have been bad clergy and some
rotten
popes, even though the cause was still just.

>> While on the subject of the Commonwealth's alien allies, I found
>> something else peculiar.  Wolfe is a Catholic, and from _Long_ and
>> _Short Sun_ we can  glean that the Increate/Outsider/Pancreator is the
>> Holy Trinity (see especially Silk's enlightenment and its inclusion of
>> Jesus being taken off the cross).  So why on earth do we have an angel
>> riding around as the captain of spaceships?  It seems like a
>> pretty cool ship and all, but why bother with the spaceship at all?

> ...because:
> 
> (1) this is a science fiction story, after all, and Wolfe goes out
>     of his way to provide stfnal explanations for the miraculous.
> (2) the ship isn't for Tzadkiel's benefit (in fact, if I recall
>     correctly, the ship is a manifestaton of Tzadkiel), but for the
>     benefit of the passengers and crew.

The second especially makes a great deal of sense.  After all, OT angels
appear
in fiery chariots even though they don't exactly need chariots to get
them from
place to place.

Thanks for the input.

Andrew

---

### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
*10 Jun 2002, 17:52 · follows Andrew Reeves*

Welcome, Crush.

You wrote...

> Hey, I'm also new. The Acian War *could* be thought of as a proxy war,
> but it could just as easily be viewed as a resistance war against 
> an occupying force. If there is any correlation between the Acian War
> and the War of Heaven, THAT is certainly closer to the way I've always 
> viewed my Christian participation.

Right. A big help with understanding this concept when I was much
younger was John Donne's sonnet "Batter my heart, three-person'd God,"
which is one of the most vivid presentations of "spiritual warfare"
and the fight to retake the "occupied" territory of the human soul,
which I have ever encountered.

> Actually the word "pagan" (according to Henry Chadwick) was a
> Roman military term for "civilian"-so a pagan was one who had 
> yet to become involved in the war.

I am not knowing from Henry Chadwick. Merriam-Webster's online
gives this for the etymology of Pagan:

     Middle English, from Late Latin paganus, from Latin,
     country dweller, from pagus country district; akin to
     Latin pangere to fix -- more at PACT

Under PACT, we find this:

     Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin pactum,
     from neuter of pactus, past participle of pacisci to
     agree, contract; akin to Old English fOn to seize, Latin
     pax peace, pangere to fix, fasten, Greek pEgnynai

So, wow: "pagan" turns out to be related to "peace." But,
more to the point, Andrew's "bit of pedantry" seems to be
pretty accurate.

Which doesn't really make any problems with this:

> In this light, the Acians could be viewed as a fifth column 
> brigade. The hieros seem to view themselves as our "descendents".
> Who knows the true pedigree of Erebus and Abaia? 

Well, right. There's hints in tBotNS that they're alien, though
I can't recall an explicit statement on the subject. TBotSS
seems to suggest that Scylla, at least, is related to the "Mother" 
of Blue.

---

### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
*10 Jun 2002, 18:42 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes*

Andrew responded to Crush...

> Even Agia could see that submitting to the Ascian way of life would
> be a very Bad Thing. Indeed, given that the whole nature of the
> Ascians seems so deeply wrong, it is actually rather doubtful as to
> how the giants sold their ancestors on the whole deal anyway.  

Well, an important point, which should not be glossed over, is 
Severian's experience with Loyal to the Group of Seventeen. It's
clear that, despite the breeding for docility and superior mind 
control techniques available to the rulers of Ascians, the human
spirit, so to speak, perseveres. The Ascians are not utterly-lost
minions of Hell; they are citizens of a system/state that appears
to us to be worse than that of the Commonwealth -- but its
appearance to us is based on information filtered through the 
perceptions of the citizens of the Commonwealth.

I think, in fact, it's safe to say that Mr Wolfe would regard 
the system of the Commonwealth as "better" than that of Ascia;
but we have to be careful not to take that to mean that the
system of the Commonwealth is "good" or the system of Ascia
"evil" -- just that the Commonwealth is less evil than Ascia.

(Nonetheless, the relationship between the Autarchs and the
Hieros does seem to suggest that there is a literalizing of
the "divine right of kings" theory going on here.)

> I think Vodalus provides us an answer, though. The giants offer
> all kinds of shiny techno-toys and a stable system that is free
> of strife.  By the time it's been implemented, though, it's too
> late to go back and your the brainwashed slave of an aquatic giant.

Well, they also offer power for the few. Not an inducement to
be despised.


Then he responded to me:

>> Welcom, Andrew Reeves. Hiss, click click.

> Is the above sound effect to indicate the airlock closing 
> behind me?  :)

No, just a traditional blattidaean greeting.

> That brings up another thought.  The Ascians are definitely baddies. 
> But if Erebus is, say Kim Il Song, 

Okay, whoa, hee-haw, stop right there. The analogy I was drawing
there almost certainly does _not_ apply at the level of equating 
fictional character X to historical character X'. I was suggesting
rather that Mr Wolfe's actual experience in such a proxy-war might 
make him more likely to portray such a war in his fiction, and 
pointing out some specific features that make me think that the
war between the Commonwealth and Ascia is such a portrayal, and is
colored by Mr Wolfe's experiences. But to try to draw character-level
allegorical correspondences seems to me on about the level that tries
to draw such correspondences from _The Lord of the Rings_ to World
War II.

---

### Andy Robertson
*01 Jan 1998, 11:28 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes*

----- Original Message -----

> From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <ddanehy at siebel.com>
> 
> I think, in fact, it's safe to say that Mr Wolfe would regard
> the system of the Commonwealth as "better" than that of Ascia;
> but we have to be careful not to take that to mean that the
> system of the Commonwealth is "good" or the system of Ascia
> "evil" -- just that the Commonwealth is less evil than Ascia.

Um, I don't agree.


Well, technically, yes.   But the Ascian state is the ultimate socialist
state, and is meant to be the apex of purely human horror possible.

You are right about the human spirit enduring, of course, but let's not fool
ourselves about Wolfe's intent.

    hartshorn

---