{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3301",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 3301,
    "subject": "Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2002-06-10T14:56:39+00:00",
    "last": "2002-06-14T17:19:46+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0206-1180@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "James Jordan",
        "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net"
      },
      "date": "2002-06-10T14:56:39+00:00",
      "subject": "Re: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "At 11:45 AM 6/9/2002 -0500,Steve S. wrote:\nThe lapsing of the church and of the sacraments would be more troubling,\ntheologically, I agree.  But it hasn't necessarily happened in Wolfe's\nworld.  For one thing, the race of mankind has spread to other stars.  That\nthe Christian church may have died on one planet would not preclude the\npossibility that a remnant remains.  Part of what Wolfe is writing about is\na society caught up in idolatry and the breaking in of the Outsider (as a\nthief) into that world; the lapse of the church into idolatry and the\ndiminution of the Outsider's role in the culture's worldview is an component\nof that endeavor."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "         I think that's reasonable, but also..."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Don't know if I have anything to add to your point about the flood.  Maybe,\nthe idea is that the world was already destroyed, had run down, and the New\nSun is its rebirth, not destruction."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": ".... remember that Urth is a universe-cycle before ours. These events \npredate the promise to Noah by about 50 billion years maybe. We don't know \nthat such a promise had been given to any Urnoah in Urth history. Nor, \nreturning to the first point, do we have to assume that God managed Briah \nprecisely the same way He manages our cycle.\n\nNutria"
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0206-1240@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "James Jordan",
        "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net"
      },
      "date": "2002-06-14T17:19:46+00:00",
      "subject": "RE: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0206-1180@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "At 03:33 PM 6/12/2002 -0400, Rostrum wrote:\nI assumed that these were deliberate parodies of Islam, Judaism,\nChristianity, etc. by Typhon et. al.  But since Typhon thought it was all\nbunk, he inadvertently incorporated bits that connect to the real God -\nreferences to Jesus, the Outsider, etc."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "         Good point. Hadn't thought of it that way. Just what Typhon might \nwell have done."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "I think the only out is to either assume this is an earlier universe or\nthat we're not supposed to try to literally fit Severian's adventures into\nChristian Salvation History -- they are an icon of God's work in our\nworld, rather than literal speculation about how our story might continue."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "         Well put."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "Well, if I recall, Tzad is a Hierogrammate. But I could be wrong."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "P.S. -- Can't resist sharing this: my wife was telling our three-year-old\ntwins stories from the Bible and they pointed to the story of the Plagues\nof Egypt and wanted to hear it.  When she got to the part about Passover\nand the Angel of Death, one of girls screwed up her face and said,\n\n\"Angels not do that.\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "         Oddly, Wolfe reacted quite negatively to the God As Torturer idea \nwhen I presented it to him. I thought \"Shadow of the Torturer\" meant that \nSeverian was God's shadow-agent, torturing the world through distresses \ntoward perfection. But Wolfe did not like that. No, no. The whole torture \nbusiness is Severian's horrible background out of which he is struggling to \nemerge as a more decent person. As for me, I like MY idea better! It \ncertainly seems to fit the overall narrative better.\n\nNutria"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}