Subject: Re: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 2002 14:56:39 +0000

At 11:45 AM 6/9/2002 -0500,Steve S. wrote:

>The lapsing of the church and of the sacraments would be more troubling,
>theologically, I agree.  But it hasn't necessarily happened in Wolfe's
>world.  For one thing, the race of mankind has spread to other stars.  That
>the Christian church may have died on one planet would not preclude the
>possibility that a remnant remains.  Part of what Wolfe is writing about is
>a society caught up in idolatry and the breaking in of the Outsider (as a
>thief) into that world; the lapse of the church into idolatry and the
>diminution of the Outsider's role in the culture's worldview is an component
>of that endeavor.

         I think that's reasonable, but also...

>Don't know if I have anything to add to your point about the flood.  Maybe,
>the idea is that the world was already destroyed, had run down, and the New
>Sun is its rebirth, not destruction.

.... remember that Urth is a universe-cycle before ours. These events 
predate the promise to Noah by about 50 billion years maybe. We don't know 
that such a promise had been given to any Urnoah in Urth history. Nor, 
returning to the first point, do we have to assume that God managed Briah 
precisely the same way He manages our cycle.

Nutria

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From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 2002 17:19:46 +0000

At 03:33 PM 6/12/2002 -0400, Rostrum wrote:

>I assumed that these were deliberate parodies of Islam, Judaism,
>Christianity, etc. by Typhon et. al.  But since Typhon thought it was all
>bunk, he inadvertently incorporated bits that connect to the real God -
>references to Jesus, the Outsider, etc.

         Good point. Hadn't thought of it that way. Just what Typhon might 
well have done.

>I think the only out is to either assume this is an earlier universe or
>that we're not supposed to try to literally fit Severian's adventures into
>Christian Salvation History -- they are an icon of God's work in our
>world, rather than literal speculation about how our story might continue.

         Well put.

> > Well, if I recall, Tzad is a Hierogrammate. But I could be wrong.
>
>P.S. -- Can't resist sharing this: my wife was telling our three-year-old
>twins stories from the Bible and they pointed to the story of the Plagues
>of Egypt and wanted to hear it.  When she got to the part about Passover
>and the Angel of Death, one of girls screwed up her face and said,
>
>"Angels not do that."

         Oddly, Wolfe reacted quite negatively to the God As Torturer idea 
when I presented it to him. I thought "Shadow of the Torturer" meant that 
Severian was God's shadow-agent, torturing the world through distresses 
toward perfection. But Wolfe did not like that. No, no. The whole torture 
business is Severian's horrible background out of which he is struggling to 
emerge as a more decent person. As for me, I like MY idea better! It 
certainly seems to fit the overall narrative better.

Nutria

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