{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3303", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3303, "subject": "Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly Trinity", "messages": 6, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-06-10T20:08:00+00:00", "last": "2002-06-12T15:28:37+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-10T20:08:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly Trinity", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan wrote:\n.... remember that Urth is a universe-cycle before ours. These events\npredate the promise to Noah by about 50 billion years maybe. We don't know\nthat such a promise had been given to any Urnoah in Urth history. Nor,\nreturning to the first point, do we have to assume that God managed Briah\nprecisely the same way He manages our cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've come across this stated in the archives before; is the source an\nextra-textual Wolfe interview or the like? The reason I ask is because it seems\nodd that in a whole different cycle of creation you'd still get the Apollo moon\nlanding whose picture is recognizable as such. And as someone else mentioned,\nhow would Severian's box with BOTNS make it through the singularity?\n\nThat aside, what's going on with that window into the 20th c. in the botanical\ngardens?\n\nAndrew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-06-11T05:58:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly Trinity", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Jordan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:08 PM 6/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": ".... remember that Urth is a universe-cycle before ours. These events\npredate the promise to Noah by about 50 billion years maybe. We don't\nknow\nthat such a promise had been given to any Urnoah in Urth history. Nor,\nreturning to the first point, do we have to assume that God managed\nBriah\nprecisely the same way He manages our cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I've come across this stated in the archives before; is the source an\nextra-textual Wolfe interview or the like?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The reason I ask is because it seems\nodd that in a whole different cycle of creation you'd still get the Apollo\nmoon\nlanding whose picture is recognizable as such. And as someone else\nmentioned,\nhow would Severian's box with BOTNS make it through the singularity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Well, the fact that is does somehow pass through the singularity,\non board the Ship perhaps, or in the Yesod Library, is the intra-textual\nindicator that these events are in our past. That's always the problem with\nWolfe: which of the tiny hints are important and which of the hints are not\nhints at all?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In addition to the objections raised by others, there are all those stories\nin the Brown Book, clearly recognizable to students of Classical mythology\nas founded on Earth's mythology. It also contains a direct quote from\nGenesis, and another from Marlowe's FAUSTUS. No. No. No. Urth is in our\nEarth's far future.\n\nFacts aside, as well as theological difficulties, the notion of Severian,\nturning water into wine, being baptized, dying and being resurrected, a\nworld savior, etc., in a previous iteration of creation, makes him the\nprototype for Jesus. Kind of cheapens the whole Holy Spectacle, doesn't it?\nPutting the cart before the horse.\n\nNot to mention it plays hell with Nick Gevers' idea of placing 5HC in the\nSUN universe. A separate creation with an Earth, complete with Ireland,\nScotland, Wales, and New York City, DAVID COPPERFIELD, and Catholic saints\n(all mentioned in the text), stretches credulity past all endurance.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-06-11T14:54:28+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly Trinity", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to recall an expansion theory in which the universe eternally\nexpands, collapses, and expands again in an unending cycle of big bangs and\nbig gnabs. According to this theory, each universe will would be precisely\n(or *almost* precisely) like the ones preceding it because it started the\nsame way. I understand this theory is now out-of-favor with recent evidence\nthat the universe cannot ultimately collapse. But it wouldn't have been at\nthe time of writing.\n\nThis could reconcile Wolfe's claim with the familiar references in the\nstory.\n\nBut in my heart of hearts I believe Wolfe concocted this explanation to\nrescue himself from having to constantly justify theologically everything in\nthe BOTNS. I DO recall that he denied Severian is Christ. He said he was a\n\"Christ figure\", but that's merely a literary term.\n\n-Crush\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Jordan [mailto:jbjordan4 at cox.net]\nSent: Tuesday, June 11, 2002 9:55 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly\nTrinity\n\nJJ: This universe that you sought in Briah are part of it. Is that our\nuniverse? Or is that a universe that resurrected saints have set up in the\nworld to come as part of the cities that they made?\nGW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are\nrepeating rather than something that we are.\n\nhttp://www.op.net/~pduggan/gwjbj3.html\n\nThat was my source.\n\nNutria (JJ)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-06-12T13:56:23+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly Trinity", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really would NOT place a lot of weight on this particular statement of\nWolfe's in the quoted interview. It's just too difficult to reconcile the\nother clues. I think there is no doubt when Wolfe was writing this\nFUTURISTIC novel he imagined it in the future. I think the following\nstatement is more explanatory:\n\"I was toying with those ideas, I think, rather than trying to make sense of\nthem. Is our resurrection going to be in another universal cycle? Well, yes,\nmaybe it is. I don't know. We don't know what is really meant by the world\ncoming to an end, and God rolling up the sky like a carpet and all that. It\nis all picturesque language. Figurative language to try to give a general\nidea to an audience that would not be capable of understanding the\nactuality. And I am not sure we are more capable of understanding that\nactuality than they were. It is like the Genesis story. I don't believe in a\nliteral apple and I don't believe that literally biting into the fruit had\nthis effect but if you have to explain to a bunch of primitives how men\ndiffer from animals and where men went wrong in differing from animals, this\nis a pretty good way to do it.\"\n\"Toying\" is an important word here. Based on the Wolfe answer I'm quoting\nhere, I'd say trying to make tBotNS fit with Christian theology in every way\n(or most ways) is like trying to create a perpetual motion machine or trying\nto rectify general relativity with quantum mechanics: It seems so logical\nand straightforward, but then....\n\n-- Crush\n------------------------------------------------------\nMatthew said:\n\nBut no, placing tBotNS in a distant past distresses me. It's too complex.\n-----------------------------------------------------------------" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan wrote:\nJJ: This universe that you sought in Briah are part of it. Is that our\nuniverse? Or is that a universe that resurrected saints have set up in\nthe\nworld to come as part of the cities that they made?\nGW: No. I thought of it as a long past universe. Something that we are\nrepeating rather than something that we are." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-06-12T15:28:37+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly Trinity", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is logical and straightforward. It is called Quantum Electrodynamics.\n\n hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \n\"Toying\" is an important word here. Based on the Wolfe answer I'm quoting\nhere, I'd say trying to make tBotNS fit with Christian theology in every\nway\n(or most ways) is like trying to create a perpetual motion machine or\ntrying\nto rectify general relativity with quantum mechanics: It seems so logical\nand straightforward, but then...." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-06-12T15:23:28+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly Trinity", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's funny that someone would call quantum electrodynamics\n\"straightforward\".\n\nClearly there should be a novel about wherever you work. ;-)\n\n- Crush\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Andy Robertson [mailto:andywrobertson at clara.co.uk]\nSent: Wednesday, June 12, 2002 10:29 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is theHoly\nTrinity\n\nIt is logical and straightforward. It is called Quantum Electrodynamics.\n\n hartshorn\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \n\"Toying\" is an important word here. Based on the Wolfe answer I'm quoting\nhere, I'd say trying to make tBotNS fit with Christian theology in every\nway\n(or most ways) is like trying to create a perpetual motion machine or\ntrying\nto rectify general relativity with quantum mechanics: It seems so logical\nand straightforward, but then...." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] } ] }