{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3307", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3307, "subject": "Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-06-11T15:31:37+00:00", "last": "2002-06-13T22:45:47+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-11T15:31:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Matthew asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell \nand Nuspeak?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Hartshorn replies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is obvious that it is derived from 1984 and Nuspeak. The \nidea that the Ascian's war may be derived from the eternal war\nbetween Oceana/Eastasia/Eurasia is a good one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm ... well, maybe a little, but the speech patterns of the \nAscians are _not_ derived from Newspeak. They are a clear and\nluminous reference to the habit that was for many years common \nin mainland China and among certain groups of \"liberal\" \n\"intellectuals\" in the US, of constantly quoting from the sayings\nof Mao Zedong -- or Mao Tse-Tung, as it was then spelled -- and\ntreating such quotes as the final authority, in much the way some\nfundamentalist Christians treat quotes from Scripture." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "bobking", "address": "bobking at gate.net" }, "date": "2002-06-12T20:19:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see a connection with Newspeak here, but more in the sense that Wolfe is rejecting Orwell's pessimism (if I'm interpreting him correctly) about the human mind's ability to overcome totalitarianism.\n\nIn _1984_ Newspeak and the rest of Oceania's thought control obliterate all reality and history except for what the Party wants to present. The muddled and imprecise expression fostered by Newspeak ma\nIn TBOTNS, it seems that the Ascians have tried to do the same thing to an even greater extreme. Not only are only a certain selection of words allowed, as in Newspeak, but Ascians can only speak (and\nBut for Wolfe, humanity is able to overcome these hobbles. Even using only the approved phrases, Loyal to the Group of 17 can tell the story he wants to tell and try to win the contest. Totalitarianis\nI much prefer Wolfe's more optimistic vision to the one Orwell proposed (although Orwell's idea seemingly had a lot going for it in the 1940s). And I think history has proven Wolfe right -- the commun\n-- Bob\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:31:37 -0700 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nMatthew asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell \nand Nuspeak?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Hartshorn replies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is obvious that it is derived from 1984 and Nuspeak. The \nidea that the Ascian's war may be derived from the eternal war\nbetween Oceana/Eastasia/Eurasia is a good one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm ... well, maybe a little, but the speech patterns of the \nAscians are _not_ derived from Newspeak. They are a clear and\nluminous reference to the habit that was for many years common \nin mainland China and among certain groups of \"liberal\" \n\"intellectuals\" in the US, of constantly quoting from the sayings\nof Mao Zedong -- or Mao Tse-Tung, as it was then spelled -- and\ntreating such quotes as the final authority, in much the way some\nfundamentalist Christians treat quotes from Scripture." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-12T20:47:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bob King wrote...\n\nH'mmm. Bob, your long one-line paragraphs are getting cut off. Perhaps you\ncan use the occasional carriage-return/line-feed?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see a connection with Newspeak here, but more in the sense \nthat Wolfe is rejecting Orwell's pessimism (if I'm \ninterpreting him correctly) about the human mind's ability to \novercome totalitarianism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yeah, I agree with that, at least; Orwell's totalitarian\nstate was involved in a pragmatic application of the Sapir-Whorf\nhypothesis that suggests that our perceptions of reality are \ndefined and delimited by our language; the Group of Seventeen\nseem to be doing much the same thing. Nonetheless, I hold and \ninsist that the more direct application of \"Correct Thought\" is\nto the Mao-quoting habits of Chinese Communists, especially in\nthe '60s and '70s.\n\nI wonder also if the choice of the number seventeen is \nsignificant -- perhaps a sort of sideways reference to another \nstfnal instantiation of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. I refer, of\ncourse to Samuel R. Delany's novel in which a language with no\nwords for \"I\" and \"You\" plays a major role -- Babel-17.\n\nYou are trapped in that bright moment when you learned your doom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-06-12T21:55:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nI wonder also if the choice of the number seventeen is\nsignificant -- perhaps a sort of sideways reference to another\nstfnal instantiation of the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis. I refer, of\ncourse to Samuel R. Delany's novel in which a language with no\nwords for \"I\" and \"You\" plays a major role -- Babel-17." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting thought. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has a long pedigree in SF\n(cf Vance THE LANGUAGES OF PAO) but is almost certinly untrue.\n\nIn fact we now know that children bought up in a civilisation that spoke\nonly in these tags would spontaneously Creolise the language, generating a\nreal language with a built in grammar from it.\n\nAt what time did Chomskyan ideas about language - intrinsic, built-in\nmetagrammar - become standard? Did Wolfe know?\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "bobking", "address": "bobking at gate.net" }, "date": "2002-06-12T20:18:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see a connection with Newspeak here, but more in the sense that Wolfe is rejecting Orwell's pessimism (if I'm interpreting him correctly) about the human mind's ability to overcome totalitarianism.\n\nIn _1984_ Newspeak and the rest of Oceania's thought control obliterate all reality and history except for what the Party wants to present. The muddled and imprecise expression fostered by Newspeak ma\nIn TBOTNS, it seems that the Ascians have tried to do the same thing to an even greater extreme. Not only are only a certain selection of words allowed, as in Newspeak, but Ascians can only speak (and\nBut for Wolfe, humanity is able to overcome these hobbles. Even using only the approved phrases, Loyal to the Group of 17 can tell the story he wants to tell and try to win the contest. Totalitarianis\nI much prefer Wolfe's more optimistic vision to the one Orwell proposed (although Orwell's idea seemingly had a lot going for it in the 1940s). And I think history has proven Wolfe right -- the commun\n-- Bob\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nOn Tue, 11 Jun 2002 08:31:37 -0700 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nMatthew asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Has anyone mentioned this is a response/riposte to Orwell \nand Nuspeak?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Hartshorn replies:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is obvious that it is derived from 1984 and Nuspeak. The \nidea that the Ascian's war may be derived from the eternal war\nbetween Oceana/Eastasia/Eurasia is a good one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummm ... well, maybe a little, but the speech patterns of the \nAscians are _not_ derived from Newspeak. They are a clear and\nluminous reference to the habit that was for many years common \nin mainland China and among certain groups of \"liberal\" \n\"intellectuals\" in the US, of constantly quoting from the sayings\nof Mao Zedong -- or Mao Tse-Tung, as it was then spelled -- and\ntreating such quotes as the final authority, in much the way some\nfundamentalist Christians treat quotes from Scripture." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-12T21:17:10+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hartshorn writes..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting thought. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has a long \npedigree in SF (cf Vance THE LANGUAGES OF PAO) but is almost\ncertinly untrue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think \"too strong\" is probably more accurate than \"untrue.\" Language,\nalong with other mental structures, does pretty clearly _guide_ the \nway we think about things. It doesn't have the property of absolute \nconstraint/restraing that Sapir-Whorf suggests.\n\nOne of the reasons Sapir-Whorf (whether or not named as such) has\nso strong a pedigree in SF is doubtless its strongest instantiation,\nthe study of General Semantics, founded by Count Alfred Korzybski, \nwhich essentially claims that most if not all \"mental\" problems stem \nfrom the use of \"language\" that does not correspond to \"reality.\" (I \nplace those words in quotes because in g-s they have special technical\nmeanings.) General semantics has (to a greater or lesser extent) \ninfluenced a large number of SF writers directly, including van Vogt, \nHeinlein, and Delany; it seems likely enough that it also influences\nothers indirectly through these." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In fact we now know that children bought up in a civilisation \nthat spoke only in these tags would spontaneously Creolise the\nlanguage, generating a real language with a built in grammar from\nit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "H'mmm. I think to say \"we know\" is, again, a bit too strong: \"we \nhave strong reason to believe,\" yes. Some popularizers (Pinker comes \nreadily to mind) have a tendency to state these things as firm and\nestablished fact, when we're dealing in an area where experimentation\nis nearly impossible and field data is always already tainted by\ninteraction with other cultures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At what time did Chomskyan ideas about language - intrinsic, built-in\nmetagrammar - become standard? Did Wolfe know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know if they are \"standard,\" but they are certainly influential\nand taught in most linguistics curricula. I think the whole \"deep\ngrammar\" idea is still somewhat controversial, despite the claims of,\nonce again, Pinker that the whole thing is settled.\n\nBurro: An ass. Burrow: A hole in the ground. Be sure you know the\ndifference." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-06-13T13:24:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hartshorn writes..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Interesting thought. The Sapir-Whorf hypothesis has a long \npedigree in SF (cf Vance THE LANGUAGES OF PAO) but is almost\ncertinly untrue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think \"too strong\" is probably more accurate than \"untrue.\" Language,\nalong with other mental structures, does pretty clearly _guide_ the \nway we think about things." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe alludes to this favorably (in Plan[e]t Engineering, I think)\nwhere he mentions that we tend to think of politics and economics\nas separate things because we have no word that combines the two.\n\nTom" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-06-13T22:45:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Loyal to the Group of Seventeen", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- bobking at gate.net wrote:\nI see a connection with Newspeak here, but more in the sense that Wolfe\nis rejecting Orwell's pessimism (if I'm interpreting him correctly)\nabout the human mind's ability to overcome totalitarianism.\n\nIn _1984_ Newspeak and the rest of Oceania's thought control obliterate\nall reality and history except for what the Party wants to present. The\nmuddled and imprecise expression fostered by Newspeak ma\n\nIn TBOTNS, it seems that the Ascians have tried to do the same thing to\nan even greater extreme. Not only are only a certain selection of words\nallowed, as in Newspeak, but Ascians can only speak (and\n\nBut for Wolfe, humanity is able to overcome these hobbles. Even using\nonly the approved phrases, Loyal to the Group of 17 can tell the story\nhe wants to tell and try to win the contest. Totalitarianis\n\nI much prefer Wolfe's more optimistic vision to the one Orwell proposed\n(although Orwell's idea seemingly had a lot going for it in the 1940s).\nAnd I think history has proven Wolfe right -- the commun\n\n-- Bob" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nYou may be right about Wolfe's intentions, but on the other hand,\nfor all we know LttGo17 might have met a fate like Winston Smith's\nhad he not been lucky enough to get captured.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }