{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3309", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3309, "subject": "Wolfe and Eusebius", "messages": 4, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-06-11T16:25:14+00:00", "last": "2002-06-14T17:31:33+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-06-11T16:25:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe and Eusebius", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The recent talk about Chadwick's \"History of the Early Church\" made me think\nof another Church history book that I'm convinced is sitting on Wolfe's\nshelf at this moment:\nEusebius' \"Historia Ecclesiastica\" (\"History of the Church\") which he\nstarted writing around 308 AD. Eusebius was the bishop of Caesarea in\nPalestine and drew partly from the 700+ works in the library there. He\nserved in that region most of his adult life before Constantine's victory.\n\nA search of the Urth lists revealed that it has already been shown here that\nSeverian's name comes from a later name of the Encratites (a 2nd century\nGnostic sect). But I didn't see anyone note that the varied and ingenious\ntortures of Christians in Gaul under Marcus Aurelius (Book 6) leads one to\nthink of the Torturers Guild. Nor has anyone mentioned that Tatian, the\nEncratite's founder, wrote a composite of the gospels entitled \"Diatesaron\"\nmeaning \"THROUGH THE FOUR\". So maybe when Tor said they wanted to break up\nthe novel THIS was a reason Wolfe decided to break it into four novels\nrather than the traditional three?\n\nThe Gnostic doctrines of \"Aeons\" also bring to mind the universes and\nsuccessive histories leading to the Hieros.\n\nJust for completeness sake, I'll post what Eusebius says of the original\nSeverians and what Irenaeus said of the Encratites:\n\nIrenaeus (\"Against the Heresies\" Book I, chap. 28)\nSpringing from Saturninus and Marcion, those who are called Encratites\n(self-controlled) preached against marriage, thus setting aside the original\ncreation of God, and indirectly blaming Him who made the male and female for\nthe propagation of the human race. Some of those reckoned among them have\nalso introduced abstinence from animal food, thus proving themselves\nungrateful to God, who formed all things. They deny, too, the salvation of\nhim who was first created (Adam). It is but lately, however, that this\nopinion has been invented among them. A certain man named Tatian first\nintroduced the blasphemy. He was a disciple of St. Justin the Martyr's, and\nas long as he continued with him he expressed no such views; but after his\nmartyrdom he separated from the Church, and, excited and puffed up by the\nthought of being a teacher, as if he were superior to others, he composed\nhis own peculiar type of doctrine. He invented a system of certain invisible\nAeons, like the followers of Valentinus; while, like Marcion and Saturninus,\nhe declared that marriage was nothing else than corruption and fornication.\nBut his denial of Adam's salvation was an opinion due entirely to himself.\n\nEusebius (\"Historia Ecclesiastica\" Book 4.29, translation by G.A.\nWilliamson)\n\"But a little while later a man called Severus lent his weight to this sect,\nand in consequence it's members have come to be called Severians after him.\nThey make use of the Law, the Prophets, and the Gospels, interpreting in\ntheir own peculiar fashion the ideas contained in the Holy Writ, but they\nridicule Paul the Apostle, setting aside his epistles, and reject even the\n\"Acts of the Apostles\". Their old leader Tatian produced a composite work by\nsomehow combining the gospels, and called it the \"Diatesaron\": some people\nstill possess copies. It is said that he was bold enough to alter some of\nthe Apostles' expressions as though trying to rectify their phraseology. He\nhas left a great many works, of which the one most generally familiar is his\nfamous essay 'The Greeks Answered', in which he discusses primitive times,\nshowing that all the eminent writers of Greece belong to a much later period\nthan Moses and the Hebrew prophets. This essay is, I think, the best and\nmost helpful of all his writings.\"\n\n- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-06-11T19:42:55+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe and Eusebius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you very much, Crush, for posting these-- right on the button. One can\nfossick around among these odd old writings, but I bet GW has too. Useful to\nhave in the archive.\n\nalga" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just for completeness sake, I'll post what Eusebius says of the original\nSeverians and what Irenaeus said of the Encratites:\n\nIrenaeus (\"Against the Heresies\" Book I, chap. 28)\nSpringing from Saturninus and Marcion, those who are called Encratites\n(self-controlled) preached against marriage, thus setting aside the\noriginal\ncreation of God, and indirectly blaming Him who made the male and female\nfor\nthe propagation of the human race. Some of those reckoned among them have\nalso introduced abstinence from animal food, thus proving themselves\nungrateful to God, who formed all things. They deny, too, the salvation of\nhim who was first created (Adam). It is but lately, however, that this\nopinion has been invented among them. A certain man named Tatian first\nintroduced the blasphemy. He was a disciple of St. Justin the Martyr's,\nand\nas long as he continued with him he expressed no such views; but after his\nmartyrdom he separated from the Church, and, excited and puffed up by the\nthought of being a teacher, as if he were superior to others, he composed\nhis own peculiar type of doctrine. He invented a system of certain\ninvisible\nAeons, like the followers of Valentinus; while, like Marcion and\nSaturninus,\nhe declared that marriage was nothing else than corruption and\nfornication.\nBut his denial of Adam's salvation was an opinion due entirely to himself.\n\nEusebius (\"Historia Ecclesiastica\" Book 4.29, translation by G.A.\nWilliamson)\n\"But a little while later a man called Severus lent his weight to this\nsect,\nand in consequence it's members have come to be called Severians after\nhim.\nThey make use of the Law, the Prophets, and the Gospels, interpreting in\ntheir own peculiar fashion the ideas contained in the Holy Writ, but they\nridicule Paul the Apostle, setting aside his epistles, and reject even the\n\"Acts of the Apostles\". Their old leader Tatian produced a composite work\nby\nsomehow combining the gospels, and called it the \"Diatesaron\": some people\nstill possess copies. It is said that he was bold enough to alter some of\nthe Apostles' expressions as though trying to rectify their phraseology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "has left a great many works, of which the one most generally familiar is\nhis\nfamous essay 'The Greeks Answered', in which he discusses primitive times,\nshowing that all the eminent writers of Greece belong to a much later\nperiod\nthan Moses and the Hebrew prophets. This essay is, I think, the best and\nmost helpful of all his writings.\"\n\n- Crush\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-06-13T23:50:58+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe and Eusebius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nThe recent talk about Chadwick's \"History of the Early Church\" made me\nthink\nof another Church history book that I'm convinced is sitting on Wolfe's\nshelf at this moment:\nEusebius' \"Historia Ecclesiastica\" (\"History of the Church\") which he\nstarted writing around 308 AD. Eusebius was the bishop of Caesarea in\nPalestine and drew partly from the 700+ works in the library there. He\nserved in that region most of his adult life before Constantine's\nvictory.\n\nA search of the Urth lists revealed that it has already been shown here\nthat\nSeverian's name comes from a later name of the Encratites (a 2nd century\nGnostic sect). But I didn't see anyone note that the varied and\ningenious\ntortures of Christians in Gaul under Marcus Aurelius (Book 6) leads one\nto\nthink of the Torturers Guild. Nor has anyone mentioned that Tatian, the\nEncratite's founder, wrote a composite of the gospels entitled\n\"Diatesaron\"\nmeaning \"THROUGH THE FOUR\". So maybe when Tor said they wanted to break\nup\nthe novel THIS was a reason Wolfe decided to break it into four novels\nrather than the traditional three?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nWell, it's less hubris than simply imitating the number of Gospels.\n(But what do I know? Maybe from a Catholic point of view, that\nwouldn't be hubris at all.)\n\nAnother thing that's not in the archives (that search function is\ngreat!) is that, since as Mantis has told us the names of Commonwealth\ncitizens are those of Catholic saints, there must be Saints\nSeverian. There are three at\n (but only one Severa).\nI don't see any relevance of any of them except the one who was\nmartyred with St. Aquila--probably his wife, says the site. Does\nthis make sense of that comment in one of the Afterwords that a\nconnection between the Claw and the eagle of Jove is probably too\npat? Maybe the connection is to St. Aquila, the eagle. And is this\nall in _Lexicon Urthus_?\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-06-14T17:31:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Wolfe and Eusebius", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:25 AM 6/11/2002 -0500, you wrote:\nThe recent talk about Chadwick's \"History of the Early Church\" made me think\nof another Church history book that I'm convinced is sitting on Wolfe's\nshelf at this moment:\nEusebius' \"Historia Ecclesiastica\" (\"History of the Church\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Right on the money. I cannot imagine you are wrong about thi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A search of the Urth lists revealed that it has already been shown here that\nSeverian's name comes from a later name of the Encratites (a 2nd century\nGnostic sect). But I didn't see anyone note that the varied and ingenious\ntortures of Christians in Gaul under Marcus Aurelius (Book 6) leads one to\nthink of the Torturers Guild." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Yes, and we do have quotations from Aurelius in Silk's book, no? \nAnd Severian founded the Torturers, and he's emperor. But Wolfe does not \nlike the Torturers, and Severian is also a Christian of some sort. More \nconflation and ambiguity from Wolfe. Severian is Mr. Imperfect!\n I agree with alga (again! what's happening here, alga?): a great \nfind and contribution to the discussion.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }