{
  "export": {
    "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3313",
    "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it.  Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.",
    "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'"
  },
  "archive": "urth",
  "thread": {
    "id": 3313,
    "subject": "Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the Holy T",
    "messages": 2,
    "voices": 1,
    "first": "2002-06-12T19:33:04+00:00",
    "last": "2002-06-17T11:55:52+00:00"
  },
  "messages": [
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0206-1224@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Michael Straight",
        "address": "straight at email.unc.edu"
      },
      "date": "2002-06-12T19:33:04+00:00",
      "subject": "RE: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the Holy T",
      "in_reply_to": null,
      "reply_link": null,
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSo Typhon and his brood create the _Whorl,_ a place in which they\ncan be as gods; they brutally try to suppress all memory of the\nreligions of Urth. Yet hints of these religions creep through, so\nthat the \"Vironese Faith\" rather resembles Temple Judaism, albeit\nwith many Gods; so that the Trivigauntes have a religion very similar\nto Islam, except with the sexual roles reversed; and so that there\nis even some vague memory of the Incarnation."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I assumed that these were deliberate parodies of Islam, Judaism,\nChristianity, etc. by Typhon et. al.  But since Typhon thought it was all\nbunk, he inadvertently incorporated bits that connect to the real God -\nreferences to Jesus, the Outsider, etc."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "Furthermore, it seems that at the end of _Urth of the New Sun_, he's\nsomewhat violating His promise never again to destroy the \nworld again by water.  "
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Again, assuming that this is an earlier universal cycle, one can weasel\neven easier by saying that the promise hasn't yet happened ... but I\nthink that the Urth isn't _destroyed_ by water, it's renewed by water.\nIn fact, one could claim that it's baptised, as Severian himself is in\nthe opening chapter of tBotNS, \"Death and Resurrection.\""
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "I don't think this works.  The New Testament writers use baptism language\nto describe Noah's flood (and vice versa), but that doesn't mean the\nDeluge wasn't the thing God promised not to do again.  And I don't know\nhow you could define \"not destroyed, but renewed\" in a way that includes\nSeverian's flood but excludes Noah's.\n\nI think the only out is to either assume this is an earlier universe or\nthat we're not supposed to try to literally fit Severian's adventures into\nChristian Salvation History -- they are an icon of God's work in our\nworld, rather than literal speculation about how our story might continue.\n\n-Rostrum"
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "Well, if I recall, Tzad is a Hierogrammate. But I could be wrong."
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "P.S. -- Can't resist sharing this: my wife was telling our three-year-old\ntwins stories from the Bible and they pointed to the story of the Plagues\nof Egypt and wanted to hear it.  When she got to the part about Passover\nand the Angel of Death, one of girls screwed up her face and said, \n\n\"Angels not do that.\""
        }
      ]
    },
    {
      "message_id": "<urth-v0206-1249@digest.urth.net>",
      "from": {
        "name": "Michael Straight",
        "address": "straight at email.unc.edu"
      },
      "date": "2002-06-17T11:55:52+00:00",
      "subject": "RE: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the Holy T",
      "in_reply_to": "<urth-v0206-1224@digest.urth.net>",
      "reply_link": "subject",
      "blocks": [
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 2,
          "text": "On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nI assumed that these were deliberate parodies of Islam, Judaism,\nChristianity, etc. by Typhon et. al."
        },
        {
          "kind": "quote",
          "depth": 1,
          "text": "The Vironese faith is not in fact that much like Judaism.  They\nshare priests sacrificing animals in a temple, but I don't remember\nprivate confession, augury, or dancing sibyls in Judaism, and of\ncourse there's no polytheism.  The haruspication makes it more like\nthe ancient Romans' religion, doesn't it?"
        },
        {
          "kind": "text",
          "depth": 0,
          "text": "Yeah, what I meant is that it's all a mishmash that might have seemed\nfunny to Typhon:  \"Let's have Christianesque priests worshiping a pantheon\nof Gods and doing animal sacrifices.  Oh and computer, throw together some\nholy texts from a bunch of random religions.  And then lets have version\nof Islam with the women in charge!\"\n\nThere's probably also a city in the Whorl filled with \"Buddhists\" who hire\npeople to meditate for them and spend their time partying.\n\n-Rostrum"
        }
      ]
    }
  ]
}