Subject: RE: (urth) Some problems if the Pancreator/Outsider is the Holy T

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Wed, 12 Jun 2002 19:33:04 +0000

On Mon, 10 Jun 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

> So Typhon and his brood create the _Whorl,_ a place in which they
> can be as gods; they brutally try to suppress all memory of the
> religions of Urth. Yet hints of these religions creep through, so
> that the "Vironese Faith" rather resembles Temple Judaism, albeit
> with many Gods; so that the Trivigauntes have a religion very similar
> to Islam, except with the sexual roles reversed; and so that there
> is even some vague memory of the Incarnation.

I assumed that these were deliberate parodies of Islam, Judaism,
Christianity, etc. by Typhon et. al.  But since Typhon thought it was all
bunk, he inadvertently incorporated bits that connect to the real God -
references to Jesus, the Outsider, etc.

> > Furthermore, it seems that at the end of _Urth of the New Sun_, he's
> > somewhat violating His promise never again to destroy the 
> > world again by water.  
> 
> Again, assuming that this is an earlier universal cycle, one can weasel
> even easier by saying that the promise hasn't yet happened ... but I
> think that the Urth isn't _destroyed_ by water, it's renewed by water.
> In fact, one could claim that it's baptised, as Severian himself is in
> the opening chapter of tBotNS, "Death and Resurrection."

I don't think this works.  The New Testament writers use baptism language
to describe Noah's flood (and vice versa), but that doesn't mean the
Deluge wasn't the thing God promised not to do again.  And I don't know
how you could define "not destroyed, but renewed" in a way that includes
Severian's flood but excludes Noah's.

I think the only out is to either assume this is an earlier universe or
that we're not supposed to try to literally fit Severian's adventures into
Christian Salvation History -- they are an icon of God's work in our
world, rather than literal speculation about how our story might continue.

-Rostrum

> Well, if I recall, Tzad is a Hierogrammate. But I could be wrong.

P.S. -- Can't resist sharing this: my wife was telling our three-year-old
twins stories from the Bible and they pointed to the story of the Plagues
of Egypt and wanted to hear it.  When she got to the part about Passover
and the Angel of Death, one of girls screwed up her face and said, 

"Angels not do that."

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 11:55:52 +0000

On Thu, 13 Jun 2002, Jerry Friedman wrote:

> > Christianity, etc. by Typhon et. al.
> 
> The Vironese faith is not in fact that much like Judaism.  They
> share priests sacrificing animals in a temple, but I don't remember
> private confession, augury, or dancing sibyls in Judaism, and of
> course there's no polytheism.  The haruspication makes it more like
> the ancient Romans' religion, doesn't it?

Yeah, what I meant is that it's all a mishmash that might have seemed
funny to Typhon:  "Let's have Christianesque priests worshiping a pantheon
of Gods and doing animal sacrifices.  Oh and computer, throw together some
holy texts from a bunch of random religions.  And then lets have version
of Islam with the women in charge!"

There's probably also a city in the Whorl filled with "Buddhists" who hire
people to meditate for them and spend their time partying.

-Rostrum

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