{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/332", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 332, "subject": "Time", "messages": 10, "voices": 5, "first": "1998-02-01T13:37:54+00:00", "last": "1998-02-05T17:05:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David_Lebling", "address": "david_lebling at avid.com" }, "date": "1998-02-01T13:37:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What a great flurry of new activity! And some new blood as well. Yumbo!\n\nOn the illness of the sun: It is stated in several places that the sun\nis being devoured by a black hole. That much is impossible to argue\nwith. The debatable point is whether it's natural causes or murder. It\nseems pretty clear to me that it was done on purpose to weaken Typhon's\nempire. The coincidence is too unlikely otherwise. Who dunnit? The\nobvious SFnal idea is that it's \"the rebels,\" whomever they might be. \nThe unobvious idea is that it's Severian himself, or more generally the\nforces of good. It's pretty clear that the sort of empire Typhon was\nruling is one you don't want as a neighbor, so...\n\nOn the mountains: This may just be me reading things into the text that\naren't there (what! never!), but the mountains are clearly \"all\" carved\nin the shape of people. And it isn't just autarchs, either. You could\nlook it up.\n\nOn geography, to CRCulver: The action of the tetralogy takes place in\nSouth America, and yet there is a great river that flows southwestward\nover a plain, and great mountains to the north and east of the plain.\nThis isn't _our_ South America. Either lots of time has passed (and\ngetting serious mountains in that end of SA is going to take a lot of\ntime -- the plate tectonics are all going the wrong way), or someone has\nbeen fiddling. On the other hand, the statement that such stuff has\nstopped is a pretty strong argument for Deep Time. Perhaps the same\ntechnology that reshaped the continents froze them as well -- what a\nnuisance if you get the continents where you want them and they start\ndrifting off again!\n\nTzadkiel and Severian: Recall that Tzadziel can send slivers of itself\noff as independent beings. Now we have the suggestion that Severian can\ndo the same. Perhaps Severian _is_ Tzadziel, in that sense?\n\nDeep Time: The hardest thing to believe about TBOTNS taking place 50\nmillion years in the future is that _so little_ has changed. People are\nstill people, exactly as they are now. The average species lasts on the\norder of three million years. Even with all sorts of advanced\ntechnology, would 50 million years have changed so little?\n\nWolfe is a master at making things simultaneously not be what they seem\nand giving clues to the truth. It's perfectly appropriate that it\nshould seem like millions (or even billions) of years have passed, just\nas it seems that we're reading a sword & sorcery story at first. After\nall, one of many things the book is is an homage to _The Dying Earth_,\nwhich is pretty clearly science fantasy. One of Wolfe's goals was to\nmake the science fantasy into science fiction. Vance's book doesn't\nmake sense as science fiction, so Wolfe spent a great deal of effort to\nmake sense of it.\n\n -viz\n (david_lebling at avid.com)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kierannwn at tinet.ie" }, "date": "1998-02-02T11:14:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the illness of the sun: It is stated in several places that the sun\nis being devoured by a black hole. That much is impossible to argue\nwith. The debatable point is whether it's natural causes or murder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about this then:\n\nItem: The Conciliator is sometimes referred to as \"Dark Sun\" (or \"Dark Star\"\ncan't remember which.)\nItem: The New Sun itself is a White Fountain. This is described in the text\nas being the opposite of a black hole, i.e. an erruption of matter from one\n(lower) universe to another (higher) universe.\nItem: There is a black hole in the Old Sun\nItem: The White Fountain that is the New Sun was not born in the same\nuniverse as Urth. (shaky here, but I thought that was mentioned in tUotNS)\n\nSo, speculation follows: the black hole that is destroying the Old Sun is\nmerely the necessary complement to the New Sun. One has caused the other,\nand are both different sides of the same coin that is Severian.\n\n\n\nNorth West Labs\nFinisklin Industrial Estate\nSligo\nRepublic of Ireland\n\nTel. +353 71 69441\nFax. +353 71 69451\nemail: kierannwn at tinet.ie\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David_Lebling at avid.com \nTo: urth at lists.best.com \nDate: Sunday, February 01, 1998 8:10 PM\nSubject: (urth) Time\n\n[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other\nworks]\n\nWhat a great flurry of new activity! And some new blood as well. Yumbo!\n\nOn the illness of the sun: It is stated in several places that the sun\nis being devoured by a black hole. That much is impossible to argue\nwith. The debatable point is whether it's natural causes or murder. It\nseems pretty clear to me that it was done on purpose to weaken Typhon's\nempire. The coincidence is too unlikely otherwise. Who dunnit? The\nobvious SFnal idea is that it's \"the rebels,\" whomever they might be.\nThe unobvious idea is that it's Severian himself, or more generally the\nforces of good. It's pretty clear that the sort of empire Typhon was\nruling is one you don't want as a neighbor, so...\n\nOn the mountains: This may just be me reading things into the text that\naren't there (what! never!), but the mountains are clearly \"all\" carved\nin the shape of people. And it isn't just autarchs, either. You could\nlook it up.\n\nOn geography, to CRCulver: The action of the tetralogy takes place in\nSouth America, and yet there is a great river that flows southwestward\nover a plain, and great mountains to the north and east of the plain.\nThis isn't _our_ South America. Either lots of time has passed (and\ngetting serious mountains in that end of SA is going to take a lot of\ntime -- the plate tectonics are all going the wrong way), or someone has\nbeen fiddling. On the other hand, the statement that such stuff has\nstopped is a pretty strong argument for Deep Time. Perhaps the same\ntechnology that reshaped the continents froze them as well -- what a\nnuisance if you get the continents where you want them and they start\ndrifting off again!\n\nTzadkiel and Severian: Recall that Tzadziel can send slivers of itself\noff as independent beings. Now we have the suggestion that Severian can\ndo the same. Perhaps Severian _is_ Tzadziel, in that sense?\n\nDeep Time: The hardest thing to believe about TBOTNS taking place 50\nmillion years in the future is that _so little_ has changed. People are\nstill people, exactly as they are now. The average species lasts on the\norder of three million years. Even with all sorts of advanced\ntechnology, would 50 million years have changed so little?\n\nWolfe is a master at making things simultaneously not be what they seem\nand giving clues to the truth. It's perfectly appropriate that it\nshould seem like millions (or even billions) of years have passed, just\nas it seems that we're reading a sword & sorcery story at first. After\nall, one of many things the book is is an homage to _The Dying Earth_,\nwhich is pretty clearly science fantasy. One of Wolfe's goals was to\nmake the science fantasy into science fiction. Vance's book doesn't\nmake sense as science fiction, so Wolfe spent a great deal of effort to\nmake sense of it.\n\n -viz\n (david_lebling at avid.com)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kierannwn at tinet.ie" }, "date": "1998-02-02T14:22:20+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Resending this, so apologies for duplication if any]\n\n-viz wonders:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the illness of the sun: It is stated in several places that the sun\nis being devoured by a black hole. That much is impossible to argue\nwith. The debatable point is whether it's natural causes or murder." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How about this then:\n\nItem: The Conciliator is sometimes referred to as \"Dark Sun\" (or \"Dark Star\"\ncan't remember which.)\nItem: The New Sun itself is a White Fountain. This is described in the text\nas being the opposite of a black hole, i.e. an erruption of matter from one\n(lower) universe to another (higher) universe.\nItem: There is a black hole in the Old Sun\nItem: The White Fountain that is the New Sun was not born in the same\nuniverse as Urth. (shaky here, but I thought that was mentioned in tUotNS)\n\nSo, speculation follows: the black hole that is destroying the Old Sun is\nmerely the necessary complement to the New Sun. One has caused the other,\nand are both different sides of the same coin that is Severian.\n\nlasrach\n\nNorth West Labs\nFinisklin Industrial Estate\nSligo\nRepublic of Ireland\n\nTel. +353 71 69441\nFax. +353 71 69451\nemail: kierannwn at tinet.ie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kierannwn at tinet.ie" }, "date": "1998-02-02T12:50:45+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Addendum to last message: I'm mixing up my terminology somewhat. To clarify:\nthe New Sun as an astrophysical object is the spanking brand new star which\nresults when the White Fountain does its rejuvination job on the Old Sun.\n(Which of course you all knew, but I confused the two terms in my last\nmessage).\n\nlasrach\n\nNorth West Labs\nFinisklin Industrial Estate\nSligo\nRepublic of Ireland\n\nTel. +353 71 69441\nFax. +353 71 69451\nemail: kierannwn at tinet.ie\n-----Original Message-----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: Kieran Cleary \nTo: urth at lists.best.com \nDate: Monday, February 02, 1998 11:14 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Time\nOn the illness of the sun: It is stated in several places that the sun\nis being devoured by a black hole. That much is impossible to argue\nwith. The debatable point is whether it's natural causes or murder." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How about this then:\n\nItem: The Conciliator is sometimes referred to as \"Dark Sun\" (or \"Dark\nStar\"\ncan't remember which.)\nItem: The New Sun itself is a White Fountain. This is described in the text\nas being the opposite of a black hole, i.e. an erruption of matter from one\n(lower) universe to another (higher) universe.\nItem: There is a black hole in the Old Sun\nItem: The White Fountain that is the New Sun was not born in the same\nuniverse as Urth. (shaky here, but I thought that was mentioned in tUotNS)\n\nSo, speculation follows: the black hole that is destroying the Old Sun is\nmerely the necessary complement to the New Sun. One has caused the other,\nand are both different sides of the same coin that is Severian.\n\n\n\nNorth West Labs\nFinisklin Industrial Estate\nSligo\nRepublic of Ireland\n\nTel. +353 71 69441\nFax. +353 71 69451\nemail: kierannwn at tinet.ie\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: David_Lebling at avid.com \nTo: urth at lists.best.com \nDate: Sunday, February 01, 1998 8:10 PM\nSubject: (urth) Time" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "[Posted from URTH, a mailing list about Gene Wolfe's New Sun and other\nworks]\n\nWhat a great flurry of new activity! And some new blood as well. Yumbo!\n\nOn the illness of the sun: It is stated in several places that the sun\nis being devoured by a black hole. That much is impossible to argue\nwith. The debatable point is whether it's natural causes or murder. It\nseems pretty clear to me that it was done on purpose to weaken Typhon's\nempire. The coincidence is too unlikely otherwise. Who dunnit? The\nobvious SFnal idea is that it's \"the rebels,\" whomever they might be.\nThe unobvious idea is that it's Severian himself, or more generally the\nforces of good. It's pretty clear that the sort of empire Typhon was\nruling is one you don't want as a neighbor, so...\n\nOn the mountains: This may just be me reading things into the text that\naren't there (what! never!), but the mountains are clearly \"all\" carved\nin the shape of people. And it isn't just autarchs, either. You could\nlook it up.\n\nOn geography, to CRCulver: The action of the tetralogy takes place in\nSouth America, and yet there is a great river that flows southwestward\nover a plain, and great mountains to the north and east of the plain.\nThis isn't _our_ South America. Either lots of time has passed (and\ngetting serious mountains in that end of SA is going to take a lot of\ntime -- the plate tectonics are all going the wrong way), or someone has\nbeen fiddling. On the other hand, the statement that such stuff has\nstopped is a pretty strong argument for Deep Time. Perhaps the same\ntechnology that reshaped the continents froze them as well -- what a\nnuisance if you get the continents where you want them and they start\ndrifting off again!\n\nTzadkiel and Severian: Recall that Tzadziel can send slivers of itself\noff as independent beings. Now we have the suggestion that Severian can\ndo the same. Perhaps Severian _is_ Tzadziel, in that sense?\n\nDeep Time: The hardest thing to believe about TBOTNS taking place 50\nmillion years in the future is that _so little_ has changed. People are\nstill people, exactly as they are now. The average species lasts on the\norder of three million years. Even with all sorts of advanced\ntechnology, would 50 million years have changed so little?\n\nWolfe is a master at making things simultaneously not be what they seem\nand giving clues to the truth. It's perfectly appropriate that it\nshould seem like millions (or even billions) of years have passed, just\nas it seems that we're reading a sword & sorcery story at first. After\nall, one of many things the book is is an homage to _The Dying Earth_,\nwhich is pretty clearly science fantasy. One of Wolfe's goals was to\nmake the science fantasy into science fiction. Vance's book doesn't\nmake sense as science fiction, so Wolfe spent a great deal of effort to\nmake sense of it.\n\n -viz\n (david_lebling at avid.com)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "works" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-02-02T14:18:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "vizcacha wrote:\nDeep Time: The hardest thing to believe about TBOTNS taking place 50\nmillion years in the future is that _so little_ has changed. People are\nstill people, exactly as they are now. The average species lasts on the\norder of three million years. Even with all sorts of advanced\ntechnology, would 50 million years have changed so little?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is not exactly true. I'm as yet unable to track down the reference, but I'm sure that the text mentions somewhere that the people of Sev's era have evolved quite a bit from the Homo Sapiens Sapiens that we know today. Or maybe it's in one of Wolfe's essays. Anyway, this could support the FAR future setting for The Book...if only I could track it down. Of course, I've been looking for the \"Coke bottle beaches\" reference for some time too. Methinks the hour is anon for another reading.\n\nJason" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jim Jordan", "address": "jbjordan at gnt.net" }, "date": "1998-02-02T20:19:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At 02:18 PM 2/2/98 -0500, you wrote: \n\n\n\n I'm as yet unable to track down the reference, but I'm\nsure that the text mentions somewhere that the people of\nSev's era have evolved quite a bit from the Homo Sapiens Sapiens\nthat we know today. Or maybe it's in one of Wolfe's essays. \nAnyway, this could support the FAR future setting for The Book...if only\nI could track it down. Of course, I've been looking for the \"Coke bottle\nbeaches\" reference for some time too. Methinks the hour is anon for\nanother reading.\n\n \n\nJason\n\n\n\tWhile I don't recall any particular reference, the ability of\nthese people to sustain pain under torture implied to me, in my first\nreading, that they had developed beyond where people are today in some\nregards. \n\n\tOf course, we also know that people have been engineered....\n\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Kieran Cleary", "address": "kierannwn at tinet.ie" }, "date": "1998-02-03T11:14:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the reference to the humans of Sev's time having changed a good deal takes place when Sev. emerges from the mine at Saltus and chats to Jonas re the possible origin of the man apes. Sev wonders aloud why humans haven't changed & Jonas gives him one of his long hard looks to indicate that he's wrong. A bit vague, I know, but I don't have the books to hand.\n\n-lasrach\n\nNorth West Labs\nFinisklin Industrial Estate\nSligo\nRepublic of Ireland\n\nTel. +353 71 69441\nFax. +353 71 69451\nemail: kierannwn at tinet.ie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-02-03T10:19:27+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "lasrach said:\n I think the reference to the humans of Sev's time having changed a good deal takes place when Sev. emerges from the mine at Saltus and chats to Jonas re the possible origin of the man apes. Sev wonders aloud why humans haven't changed & Jonas gives him one of his long hard looks to indicate that he's wrong. A bit vague, I know, but I don't have the books to hand.\nGood call! Here it is: II, Ch. 8, p. 260 of Shadow & Claw\n\n(Jonas and Severian are discussing the origin of the man-apes)\n\nJonas:\n \"I don't know whether your man-apes are the same kind of hybrid...I would be inclined to agree with you that they are human beings who have undergone some change in their essential nature as a result of their life in the mines and their contact with the relics of the city buried there. Urth is very old now...Gold and silver do not alter, but their guardians can suffer metamorphoses stranger than those that turn grapes to wine and sand to pearls.\"\nSeverian:\n \"But we outside endure the dark each night, and the treasures carried up from the mines are brought to us. Why haven't we changed too?\" Jonas did not answer...Still, when he turned to face me there was something in his eyes that told me I was being a fool, that we had changed. He turned away again and stared out and up once more.\n\n -----Original Message-----\n From: Kieran Cleary \n To: urth at lists.best.com \n Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 9:35 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) Time\n \n \n I think the reference to the humans of Sev's time having changed a good deal takes place when Sev. emerges from the mine at Saltus and chats to Jonas re the possible origin of the man apes. Sev wonders aloud why humans haven't changed & Jonas gives him one of his long hard looks to indicate that he's wrong. A bit vague, I know, but I don't have the books to hand.\n \n -lasrach\n \n North West Labs\n Finisklin Industrial Estate\n Sligo\n Republic of Ireland\n \n Tel. +353 71 69441\n Fax. +353 71 69451\n email: kierannwn at tinet.ie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jason Voegele", "address": "voegele.6 at osu.edu" }, "date": "1998-02-03T10:22:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "lasrach said:\n I think the reference to the humans of Sev's time having changed a good deal takes place when Sev. emerges from the mine at Saltus and chats to Jonas re the possible origin of the man apes. Sev wonders aloud why humans haven't changed & Jonas gives him one of his long hard looks to indicate that he's wrong. A bit vague, I know, but I don't have the books to hand.\nGood call! Here it is: II, Ch. 8, p. 260 of Shadow & Claw\n \n(Jonas and Severian are discussing the origin of the man-apes)\n \nJonas:\n \"I don't know whether your man-apes are the same kind of hybrid...I would be inclined to agree with you that they are human beings who have undergone some change in their essential nature as a result of their life in the mines and their contact with the relics of the city buried there. Urth is very old now...Gold and silver do not alter, but their guardians can suffer metamorphoses stranger than those that turn grapes to wine and sand to pearls.\"\nSeverian:\n \"But we outside endure the dark each night, and the treasures carried up from the mines are brought to us. Why haven't we changed too?\" Jonas did not answer...Still, when he turned to face me there was something in his eyes that told me I was being a fool, that we had changed. He turned away again and stared out and up once more.\nVoegele\n -----Original Message-----\n From: Kieran Cleary \n To: urth at lists.best.com \n Date: Tuesday, February 03, 1998 9:35 AM\n Subject: Re: (urth) Time\n \n \n I think the reference to the humans of Sev's time having changed a good deal takes place when Sev. emerges from the mine at Saltus and chats to Jonas re the possible origin of the man apes. Sev wonders aloud why humans haven't changed & Jonas gives him one of his long hard looks to indicate that he's wrong. A bit vague, I know, but I don't have the books to hand.\n \n -lasrach\n \n North West Labs\n Finisklin Industrial Estate\n Sligo\n Republic of Ireland\n \n Tel. +353 71 69441\n Fax. +353 71 69451\n email: kierannwn at tinet.ie" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "1998-02-05T17:05:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Time", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 2 Feb 1998, Jim Jordan wrote:\n\tWhile I don't recall any particular reference, the ability of\nthese people to sustain pain under torture implied to me, in my first\nreading, that they had developed beyond where people are today in some\nregards. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had read that as attesting more to the skill of the guild than to the\nhardiness of their victims, but either or both could be true.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }