{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3320", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3320, "subject": "Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "messages": 21, "voices": 10, "first": "2002-06-15T17:58:15+00:00", "last": "2002-06-24T17:03:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-15T17:58:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm quite thrilled to have discovered this group, and as such, I'm going\nto air a few more thoughts that have nagged me concerning the main\nvillains of the Briah universe, the Undines. First off, I'm trying to\nmake a list of what we do know about them:\n\n-They are basically shaped like homo sapiens that never stop growing and\ncan breathe under water.\n\n-They've been on Urth since around the time of Typhon, and were likely\nbrought by Scylla (can't remember her human name, and the book's not\nhandy) or an associate of hers, as related in Jonas's tale.\n\n-There appears to be at least one on Blue.\n\n-They're really into high tech and enslaving humanity (viz. Baldanders\nand the Ascians). They are the brains behind the Ascians.\n\n-They can project their mental presences.\n\nAll of the above still leave a whole lot of questions. The first of\nthese is the rather blas=E9 attitudes of Silkhorn and Severian near the\nend of their series when actually meeting a representative of them.\nWhen Severian meets Juturna underwater (if it's not a dream), he\nbasically gives her a tip of the hat and moves on. Later, when Silkhorn\nprojects to Urth, he basically says, \"Hey, I really dig Seawrack, tell\nme how to find her.\" Now, both of these men are Gene Wolfe's attempt to\ndraw saintly, Christian figures. I would think that such figures would\nhave severe reservations about the way they dealt with such beings. Of\ncourse, Silkhorn doesn't really know the pedigree of our giants, but I\nwould think that the first thing Severian would do when he realized that\nhe has Godlike powers would be to try and find Erebus, Abaia et al and\nfinish them for good so that humankind could begin to climb back from\nthe level of hunter-gatherers without interference. But then again,\nsince the Green Man doesn't indicate that Abaia and Erebus are a problem\n(and forms non-Maoist sentences), perhaps someone else has.\n\nThat also brings to mind the whole question of the Commonwealth's force\nprojection capability. By the age of Severian their stuck at a fairly\nprimitive state, but in the early days of the Autarchy, especially\naround the time of Ymar, they probably had the tech level to go after\nthe giants in the water. The other question of tech level and undines\nis that there seem to be some indication that Urth under Typhon might\nhave had the capability of superluminal travel, since there's a really\ngood chance that Scylla went to Blue and brought back the undines. If\nthat's the case, why would the Whorl move at sublight speeds? Or am I\nreading to much into the text?\n\nOne final ramble: By the end of our series, Severian is but one AU from\nthe source of his power, and is probably going to have a hard time\ndying, even of old age. He may grow really, really bored.\n\nJust rambling.\n\nAndrew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-06-17T03:22:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From newbie Andrew:\n\nFirst, welcome, and prepare to be attacked at once! (Or slimed, heh heh.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm quite thrilled to have discovered this group, and as such, I'm going\nto air a few more thoughts that have nagged me concerning the main\nvillains of the Briah universe, the Undines. First off, I'm trying to\nmake a list of what we do know about them:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are *not* the main villains of the Briah universe.\n\n-They are basically shaped like homo sapiens that never stop growing and\ncan breathe under water.\n\nThey are shaped like women. They are taken from German mythology: water\nnymphs. The original Undine was created without a soul, married a mortal,\nhad a baby, gained a soul and its attendant woes. (Andersen took off on this\nin his original \"Little Mermaid\" story, as I'm sure you'll recognize.) It's\nBaldanders that never stops growing; there's no indication that the undines\ndon't have a limit, though it's a large one.\n\n-They've been on Urth since around the time of Typhon, and were likely\nbrought by Scylla (can't remember her human name, and the book's not\nhandy) or an associate of hers, as related in Jonas's tale.\n\nNot necessarily; they seem to have resources of their own (\"swimming between\nthe stars\").\n\n-There appears to be at least one on Blue.\n\nThe Mother is not an undine, if that's what you're referring to. Nor is\nSeawrack. If there is an undine on Blue, I don't recall her, though one\ncould turn up--see above.\n\n-They're really into high tech and enslaving humanity (viz. Baldanders\nand the Ascians). They are the brains behind the Ascians.\n\nNo, no and no. Erebus and Abaia, different entities entirely, perform those\nfunctions. There's a hint that the undines are handmaidens or concubines to\nthem, but it could be myth and I doubt that it could be proved. The undines\nseem mostly hedonistic, with infrequent moments of conscience. Some of them\n(Idas) are clearly in the enemy camp. But Gunnie attacks Sev too!\n\n-They can project their mental presences.\n\nWell, sort of. That also goes back to German myth and the Rhinemaidens (like\nthe Greek sirens, carelessly destructive). But so can a lot of other beings\non Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All of the above still leave a whole lot of questions. The first of\nthese is the rather blasé attitudes of Silkhorn and Severian near the\nend of their series when actually meeting a representative of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When Severian meets Juturna underwater (if it's not a dream), he\nbasically gives her a tip of the hat and moves on. Later, when Silkhorn\nprojects to Urth, he basically says, \"Hey, I really dig Seawrack, tell\nme how to find her.\" Now, both of these men are Gene Wolfe's attempt to\ndraw saintly, Christian figures. I would think that such figures would\nhave severe reservations about the way they dealt with such beings. Of\ncourse, Silkhorn doesn't really know the pedigree of our giants, but I\nwould think that the first thing Severian would do when he realized that\nhe has Godlike powers would be to try and find Erebus, Abaia et al and\nfinish them for good so that humankind could begin to climb back from\nthe level of hunter-gatherers without interference. But then again,\nsince the Green Man doesn't indicate that Abaia and Erebus are a problem\n(and forms non-Maoist sentences), perhaps someone else has.\n\nSev's not so saintly. And his powers are limited--he can't go around\nblasting Ascian armies like one of Yaweh's apparatchik thugs...er, sorry,\nRatty, avenging angels. And I would imagine they're well protected. It is\ndefinitely an untied thread to the first series though: as water-bound\nbeings I would think they'd be thrilled with the drowned Ushas.\n\nThat also brings to mind the whole question of the Commonwealth's force\nprojection capability. By the age of Severian their stuck at a fairly\nprimitive state, but in the early days of the Autarchy, especially\naround the time of Ymar, they probably had the tech level to go after\nthe giants in the water. The other question of tech level and undines\nis that there seem to be some indication that Urth under Typhon might\nhave had the capability of superluminal travel, since there's a really\ngood chance that Scylla went to Blue and brought back the undines. If\nthat's the case, why would the Whorl move at sublight speeds? Or am I\nreading to much into the text?\n\nDon't think Scylla did any such thing. Undines however *can* swim through\nthe universe, and time, a la Brook Madrigot. Human spaceships must obey the\nlaws of our universe, however. For some reason, this all makes sense to me.\n\nOne final ramble: By the end of our series, Severian is but one AU from\nthe source of his power, and is probably going to have a hard time\ndying, even of old age. He may grow really, really bored.\n\nWhat is an AU?\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-06-17T04:32:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Alice K. Turner\" \nOne final ramble: By the end of our series, Severian is but\none AU from the source of his power, and is probably going\nto have a hard time dying, even of old age. He may grow really, really\nbored." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is an AU?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An Astronmical Unit. The average distance between the Urthand the Sun.\n93,000,000 miles and some odd. It is very easy to determine the size of\nthe solar system in terms of this unit, with a simple telescope/sextant, but\nit was actually not so easy to determine exactly what this unit was until\necho-radar ranging of the planets was available .\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-06-17T05:00:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Alice K. Turner wrote:\nAnd Someone Else wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm quite thrilled to have discovered this group, and as such, I'm\ngoing to air a few more thoughts that have nagged me concerning the\nmain villains of the Briah universe, the Undines. First off, I'm\ntrying to make a list of what we do know about them:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are *not* the main villains of the Briah universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure why the Briah universe should\nbe so-called, except to say that Mr. Wolfe's\nqabalah, despite his many and other known\nexcellent qualities, is certainly no better\nthan it ought to be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They are basically shaped like homo sapiens that never stop growing and\ncan breathe under water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are shaped like women." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are those who say that women are female H. Sapiens.\n\nI've heard arguments one way and another, and I have to\nsay that I basically agree, though some of the arguments\nare strong arguments.\n\nPerhaps mere circumspection keeps the undine's menfolk\naway when they are flirting with Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " There's a hint that the undines are handmaidens or concubines to\nthem, but it could be myth and I doubt that it could be proved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna or one of her buds does tell Severian that this\nis the case. Severian does lie, occasionally (or so he\nclaims), and certainly has his own point of view of most\nthings, but I think that he generally tells the truth as\nhe sees it. So the dream might be false, or Juturna (or\nwhoever) might be lying." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...[B]oth [Severian and Silkhorn] are Gene Wolfe's attempt\nto draw saintly, Christian figures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You should read some of the histories of some of the saints.\n\nI find St. Olaf's story to be particularly interesting,\nif only because we have more than just the Church's story\nin his case (he figures in a number of Icelandic sagas).\n\nAnyway, you don't need to be of particularly saintly character\nto be a Christian saint (though no one would deny that it can\nbe helpful): you just have to perform two demonstrable miracles\nafter you are Dead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's not so saintly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " And his powers are limited--he can't go around\nblasting Ascian armies like one of Yaweh's apparatchik thugs...er, sorry,\nRatty, avenging angels. And I would imagine they're well protected. It is\ndefinitely an untied thread to the first series though: as water-bound\nbeings I would think they'd be thrilled with the drowned Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe someday (I would prefer after the third Latro novel)\nMr. Wolfe will write a second Dead Severian book (if we take\nUotNS as the first)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One final ramble: By the end of our series, Severian is but one AU\nfrom the source of his power, and is probably going to have a hard time\ndying, even of old age. He may grow really, really bored." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What is an AU?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In modern astronomy it is the average distance seperating\nEarth from the Sun, if you go in for that sort of thing.\n\n\n\nJ." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-17T12:27:13+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Alice K. Turner\" wrote:\nFrom newbie Andrew:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First, welcome, and prepare to be attacked at once! (Or slimed, heh heh.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's the fun of mailing lists and NG's, is it not? :)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are *not* the main villains of the Briah universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My mistake. Perhaps I ought to have called them the main villains on Urth, the\nfolks who are going for the enslavement of mankind." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They are basically shaped like homo sapiens that never stop growing and\ncan breathe under water.\n\nThey are shaped like women. They are taken from German mythology: water\nnymphs. The original Undine was created without a soul, married a mortal,\nhad a baby, gained a soul and its attendant woes. (Andersen took off on this\nin his original \"Little Mermaid\" story, as I'm sure you'll recognize.) It's\nBaldanders that never stops growing; there's no indication that the undines\ndon't have a limit, though it's a large one.\n\n-They've been on Urth since around the time of Typhon, and were likely\nbrought by Scylla (can't remember her human name, and the book's not\nhandy) or an associate of hers, as related in Jonas's tale.\n\nNot necessarily; they seem to have resources of their own (\"swimming between\nthe stars\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm aware that they have greater capabilities than movement through physical\nspace, but there's still some connection between them and Typhon's daughter that\nI (with very few readings under my belt) cannot quite piece together. Did\nJonas's story mention whether the beans will stop growing?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-There appears to be at least one on Blue.\n\nThe Mother is not an undine, if that's what you're referring to. Nor is\nSeawrack. If there is an undine on Blue, I don't recall her, though one\ncould turn up--see above." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe the other is not an Undine per se, but she definitely has some\nrelationship to Abaia, Erebus, and Typhon's sprat, otherwise Silkhorn wouldn't\nhave needed to make the trip to Urth to begin with." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They're really into high tech and enslaving humanity (viz. Baldanders\nand the Ascians). They are the brains behind the Ascians.\n\nNo, no and no. Erebus and Abaia, different entities entirely, perform those\nfunctions. There's a hint that the undines are handmaidens or concubines to\nthem, but it could be myth and I doubt that it could be proved. The undines\nseem mostly hedonistic, with infrequent moments of conscience. Some of them\n(Idas) are clearly in the enemy camp. But Gunnie attacks Sev too!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My mistake. How about wording it, \"Erebus, Abaia, and their Undine minions?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All of the above still leave a whole lot of questions. The first of\nthese is the rather blasé attitudes of Silkhorn and Severian near the\nend of their series when actually meeting a representative of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Severian meets Juturna underwater (if it's not a dream), he\nbasically gives her a tip of the hat and moves on. Later, when Silkhorn\nprojects to Urth, he basically says, \"Hey, I really dig Seawrack, tell\nme how to find her.\" Now, both of these men are Gene Wolfe's attempt to\ndraw saintly, Christian figures. I would think that such figures would\nhave severe reservations about the way they dealt with such beings. Of\ncourse, Silkhorn doesn't really know the pedigree of our giants, but I\nwould think that the first thing Severian would do when he realized that\nhe has Godlike powers would be to try and find Erebus, Abaia et al and\nfinish them for good so that humankind could begin to climb back from\nthe level of hunter-gatherers without interference. But then again,\nsince the Green Man doesn't indicate that Abaia and Erebus are a problem\n(and forms non-Maoist sentences), perhaps someone else has.\n\nSev's not so saintly. And his powers are limited--he can't go around\nblasting Ascian armies like one of Yaweh's apparatchik thugs...er, sorry,\nRatty, avenging angels. And I would imagine they're well protected. It is\ndefinitely an untied thread to the first series though: as water-bound\nbeings I would think they'd be thrilled with the drowned Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That always troubled me as well. Yeah, I know Sev can't do anything like shoot\nenergy bolts, but he really ought to try and do *something*." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't think Scylla did any such thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So who *was* the girl in Jonas's story? And what then were the beans? It\nalways seemed to me to fit neatly in with the rest of the cycle, especially\nafter we found out that there's definitlely a relationship between Blue's Mother\nand Erebus and Abaia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Undines however *can* swim through\nthe universe, and time, a la Brook Madrigot. Human spaceships must obey the\nlaws of our universe, however. For some reason, this all makes sense to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yabbut, again, Jonas's tale plus events of _Short Sun_ indicate that *something*\nis going on between that bratty daughter of Typhon's and the great monsters in\nthe sea. What it is, I don't know, but it's there, and *seems* to fit in well\nw/ Jonas's tale." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One final ramble: By the end of our series, Severian is but one AU from\nthe source of his power, and is probably going to have a hard time\ndying, even of old age. He may grow really, really bored.\n\nWhat is an AU?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Astronomical Unit. The distance between earth and the sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-06-17T16:35:04+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay, some of this has been replied-to, but I think perhaps less\nclearly than could be desired (given Andrew's follow-up). Andrew" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Reeves, then, wrote:\n-[Undines] are basically shaped like homo sapiens that never stop \ngrowing and can breathe under water." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The undines, as near as can be told, _are_ homo sapiens -- they are\nmore advanced cases of the process to which Baldanders has been \nsubjecting himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They've been on Urth since around the time of Typhon, and were likely\nbrought by Scylla (can't remember her human name, and the book's not\nhandy) or an associate of hers, as related in Jonas's tale." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I presume that by \"they\" you mean not the undines themselves but\ntheir masters, Erebus, Scylla, and Abaia (possibly others?). " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-There appears to be at least one on Blue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Mother appears to be of the same race as, at least, the aquatic\nScylla of Urth.\n\n(We need a generic name for these creatures ... \"space-going water\nmonsters\" seems a bit not quite the thing, if you know what I mean.\nI'll use Scylloids for now. I'm sure one of the clever folk out \nthere will have a better name.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They're really into high tech and enslaving humanity (viz. Baldanders\nand the Ascians). They are the brains behind the Ascians." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, yes, the Scylloids appear to be the brains behind the Group of \nSeventeen which appears to rule Ascia. It is far less clear what the\nrelationship is between Baldanders and the Scylloids -- he seems to be\nin a very real sense a self-made man; and the Hieros seem to deal with\nhim peacefully, as I suspect they do not with the Scylloidules." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They can project their mental presences." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see this as at all clear. How do you mean?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All of the above still leave a whole lot of questions. The first of\nthese is the rather blasé attitudes of Silkhorn and Severian near the\nend of their series when actually meeting a representative of them.\nWhen Severian meets Juturna underwater (if it's not a dream), he\nbasically gives her a tip of the hat and moves on. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, she's saved his life on at least one occasion; what do you \nexpect him to do, smite her with Divine Wrath [tm, pat. pending]?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later, when Silkhorn projects to Urth, he basically says, \"Hey,\nI really dig Seawrack, tell me how to find her.\" Now, both of\nthese men are Gene Wolfe's attempt to draw saintly, Christian\nfigures. I would think that such figures would have severe\nreservations about the way they dealt with such beings." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now, the Narrator doesn't encounter an undine, as I recall, \nbut Scylla-of-Urth. And what possible reason would he have for \n\"severe reservations\" (other than fear) in dealing with a being \nwhich he, a native of the _Whorl_ transplanted to Blue, perceives \nas a goddess? That is, he perceives her (correctly, as I think we\npretty-much-all agree) as being of the same general kind as the\nMother on Blue; and the Mother, he perceives as one of the gods\nof Blue, of the Vanished People. Absent a direct revelation that\nthere is no God but the Outsider -- and, despite Silk's rapture\nthat contains the line \"I know that You are the only god for me,\"\nneither Silk, Horn, nor the Narrator ever appears to receive such\na revelation -- there is no reason for the Narrator to think of\nthese beings either as false gods or as intrinsically evil; they\nare, to him, perilous only as gods are, necessarily, perilous to\nmortals.\n\nFor Wolfe, if he is drawing \"saintly, Christian figures\" is, in \nall cases, drawing \"realistic,\" human and flawed, pictures of such \nfigures -- and, what is more, drawing them as very much the products \nof their culture and upbringing. Severian ultimately transcends his \nupbringing as a torturer; Silk at least partially transcends his \nupbringing as a polytheist. Whether the Narrator transcends anything\nbut himself is unclear to me, at this rather early stage of study." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would think that the first thing Severian would do when he realized\nthat he has Godlike powers would be to try and find Erebus, Abaia et\nal and finish them for good " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is not at all clear that Severian's \"powers\" are _that_ \"godlike.\"\nI don't recall any examples of him blasting anything with bolts from \nhis fingertips or any such thing. His \"powers\" seem to be primarily\nover himself, and secondarily over time. Could he, perhaps, use the \nlatter against Abaia and company? Perhaps, but I'm not at all clear \nhow, given their essentially ageless nature.\n\nOn the other hand ... " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then again, since the Green Man doesn't indicate that Abaia\nand Erebus are a problem (and forms non-Maoist sentences), perhaps\nsomeone else has." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed, possibly the rackings of the Urth in the passage of the\nNew Sun has done for them -- consider, if the depth in which \nAbaia lay were suddenly raised-up as a continent, what would be\nthe effect on Abaia? His rotting corpse would also provide a great\ndeal of fertilizer ... though it would make the main part of that\ncontinent pretty-much uninhabitable for some time. Perhaps, then,\nthere are in fact only a few people left on a few islands, and they\nhave to live there while the corpses of the Scylloids, rather like\nthat of Ymir, provide the new-risen continents with the stuff of\nlife, while these corpses deteriorate, their bones become mountains,\nand forests and such grow in the new soil. Perhaps: it does seem a\nrather Lupine approach, now I think about it ..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That also brings to mind the whole question of the Commonwealth's force\nprojection capability. By the age of Severian their stuck at a fairly\nprimitive state, but in the early days of the Autarchy, especially\naround the time of Ymar, they probably had the tech level to go after\nthe giants in the water. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe ... and maybe not; the Scylloids seem to be very advanced beings\nindeed. Further, it may not have been as clear at the time of Ymar that \nthey were a threat as it is by Severian's time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The other question of tech level and undines\nis that there seem to be some indication that Urth under Typhon might\nhave had the capability of superluminal travel, since there's a really\ngood chance that Scylla went to Blue and brought back the undines. If\nthat's the case, why would the Whorl move at sublight speeds? Or am I\nreading to much into the text?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "By the time of Typhon, the culture and technology of Urth is already \nwell-advanced in its decadance and decline. Typhon has access to some\nFTL transport but not to the technology required to build it. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-06-17T17:01:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Idle Idas question:\n\nDoes she ever give her real name? It ought to be a water-nymph's name, like\nJurturna (spririt of Lake Diuturna). Idas is a man's name; he was one of a\nprincely pair of twins coeval with, but not nearly as famous as, Castor and\nPollux.\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-06-17T22:54:43+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The landbound Blattid arguing:\n\n\"The undines, as near as can be told, _are_ homo sapiens -- they are more\nadvanced cases of the process to which Baldanders has been subjecting\nhimself.\"\n\nNot sure I agree with this.\n\nFor starters the names \"Juturna\" and \"Idas\" derive from classical mythology,\nand if we adhere to Wolfe's rule of names--a rule I believe to be\ninviolable--such beings are aliens. Contrast this with \"Baldanders,\" which\ncomes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of fish in\nmy opinion.\n\nThere's also evidence that they experience time in a direction opposite to\nours. In URTH at least, when Severian asks Juturna if she remembers saving\nhim as a boy, she responds, \"No. It hasn't yet happened. It will, because\nyou spoke.\"\n\nIdas, I've also argued before, may well be the daughter of Baldanders.\nSeverian's first guess is that she's ten years old, which would make her the\nright age if Baldanders mated with Juturna after the Piteous Gate incident.\n(This would also help explain why Baldanders can breathe\nunderwater--Severian is offered the same gift for mating with Juturna. \"You\nwill breathe--by our gift--as easily as you breathe the thin, weak wind\nhere.\") Idas also proudly admits to burning the letter from Malrubius\nproclaiming Severian to be the true Autarch of Urth--something which may\nhave especially grated upon her father, since he too was once in the running\nfor the New Sun candidacy. And lastly, Idas is a nested name--save for one\nletter, being derivable from Baldanders--a pattern Wolfe uses over and over\nand over in BotNS to confer relatedness.\n\nI looked in vain for a _Saint_Idas, since she's attempting to pass as human\n(this would put her in the same category as Palaemon and Paeon, both of whom\npossess names that have both saintly and mythic exemplars), but the closest\nI could find was Ida, although my various dictionaries of saints are far\nfrom complete.\n\nAlso argued here, but never accepted, is the notion that Blue's Mother is an\nunderwater godling meant to host the eventually downloaded Scylla--just as\nthe other godlings were designed to host Pas, Echidna, and various sprats\nonce planetfall had been achieved.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-06-18T01:36:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Robert Borski\" ", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-18T01:54:51+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Robert Borski wrote:\nAlso argued here, but never accepted, is the notion that Blue's Mother is an\nunderwater godling meant to host the eventually downloaded Scylla--just as\nthe other godlings were designed to host Pas, Echidna, and various sprats\nonce planetfall had been achieved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is Silk a godling? Surely Silk was the body planned for Pas, what with\nhis near miraculous charisma. And the symmetry with Piaton is too good to\nignore. (i.e. an intended host body turning the tables on Typhon).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-06-18T02:06:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah! And Mint would be the body planned for what's-her-name, the war\ngoddess.\n\nAnd Mucor the spooky one.\n\nJ.\n\n___" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Michael Straight wrote:\nOn Mon, 17 Jun 2002, Robert Borski wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also argued here, but never accepted, is the notion that Blue's Mother is an\nunderwater godling meant to host the eventually downloaded Scylla--just as\nthe other godlings were designed to host Pas, Echidna, and various sprats\nonce planetfall had been achieved." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is Silk a godling? Surely Silk was the body planned for Pas, what with\nhis near miraculous charisma. And the symmetry with Piaton is too good to\nignore. (i.e. an intended host body turning the tables on Typhon).\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-06-19T06:20:31+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Alice K. Turner\" \nFrom newbie Andrew:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Undine Discussion] " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They've been on Urth since around the time of Typhon, and were likely\nbrought by Scylla (can't remember her human name, and the book's not\nhandy) or an associate of hers, as related in Jonas's tale.\n\nNot necessarily; they seem to have resources of their own (\"swimming between\nthe stars\")." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-They're really into high tech and enslaving humanity (viz. Baldanders\nand the Ascians). They are the brains behind the Ascians.\n\nNo, no and no. Erebus and Abaia, different entities entirely, perform those\nfunctions. There's a hint that the undines are handmaidens or concubines to\nthem, but it could be myth and I doubt that it could be proved. The undines\nseem mostly hedonistic, with infrequent moments of conscience. Some of them\n(Idas) are clearly in the enemy camp. But Gunnie attacks Sev too!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna =says= she serves Abaia. But the Undines are absolutely not into\nhigh-tech gadgets, since they slosh around naked all the time. I think\nAndrew began to think of all the various dark lords' minions as Undines,\nsince Juturna is very prominently their servant." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Don't think Scylla did any such thing. Undines however *can* swim through\nthe universe, and time, a la Brook Madrigot. Human spaceships must obey the\nlaws of our universe, however. For some reason, this all makes sense to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoa there! =One= of them, Juturna, is shown to do something like this.\nThis may or may not be her own ability like Severian and the Green Man,\nbut it may be something granted by Abaia, like Master Ash's house is\npowered by Erebus or somebody. \n\nOr it may be a skill their minions acquire in order to follow the paths\nlaid down by those same powerful beings. Juturna might only be able to\npoint into the fourth dimension while Severian is there. Idas certainly\ndoesn't have the ability to flee in any but the usual way.\n " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2002-06-19T06:38:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " From: \n \"Robert Borski\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"The undines, as near as can be told, _are_ homo sapiens -- they are more\nadvanced cases of the process to which Baldanders has been subjecting\nhimself.\"\n\nNot sure I agree with this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tThere is precedent, with the royal jelly of the exultants." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For starters the names \"Juturna\" and \"Idas\" derive from classical mythology,\nand if we adhere to Wolfe's rule of names--a rule I believe to be\ninviolable--such beings are aliens. Contrast this with \"Baldanders,\" which\ncomes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of fish in\nmy opinion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This would make Typhon an alien. While he =is= a tyrant from another\nstar, he's should be human as he is descended from emigrants of Urth\nstock. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Idas, I've also argued before, may well be the daughter of Baldanders.\nSeverian's first guess is that she's ten years old, which would make her the\nright age if Baldanders mated with Juturna after the Piteous Gate incident." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tI don't think literal human-alien hybrids \"fit\" the BotNS. Are there\nany other examples of unaided cross-species mating?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(This would also help explain why Baldanders can breathe\nunderwater--Severian is offered the same gift for mating with Juturna. \"You\nwill breathe--by our gift--as easily as you breathe the thin, weak wind\nhere.\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\tBut Baldanders is already established as being able to modify himself\nto suit; he doesn't necessarily need their gift." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson\nHow Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789\n\"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy.\" -Cpt Law\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-06-19T17:25:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoting me first, then appending:\n\n\"For starters the names \"Juturna\" and \"Idas\" derive from classical\nmythology, and if we adhere to Wolfe's rule of names--a rule I believe to\nbe inviolable--such beings are aliens. Contrast this with \"Baldanders,\"\nwhich comes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of\nfish in my opinion.\"\n\n\"This would make Typhon an alien. While he =is= a tyrant from another star,\nhe should be human as he is descended from emigrants of Urth stock.\"\n\nBut again, unless you're willing to attribute this to nomenclatural\nsloppiness on the part of GW, the name \"Typhon\" _does_ indicate he is an\nalien. After all, aliens do not travel to Urth, decide they need an\nUrth-friendly name, and then consult a book on mythology as opposed to a\nbook of saints. Similarly for new parents of a human child; they do not know\ntheir own names derive from saintly exemplars. This is because the\nsaint/human-mythic/alien naming stratagem is an order imposed from without,\nby the author. Either you believe it's fast and true, or you don't; if the\nlatter, then there's not much point in arguing further since we both\ndisagree about the convention. If the former, however, we must further\naccount for several possible contradictions; Typhon bears an alien name, for\nexample, as does Ossipago (seemingly an automaton) and Ceryx (who comes\nacross as more human than alien); then there's Palaemon and Paeon, both of\nwhom have saintly _and_ mythic exemplars. But how can they be both saints\nand aliens? Resolving these contradictons, in my opinion, is very important\nto a true understanding of tbotNS--as I've indicated before in a number of\npublished essays (for which see further gloss).\n\nWhat _I_ call the nested names rule is equally important: i.e., where a\nsecond name is, if not entirely, derivable from a parent name, requiring\n_only the addition of a single letter_--such interrelatedness being Wolfe's\nway of conferring the two are somehow related, either literally or\nfiguratively (or in some cases making both individuals the same person).\n\nMindful of Buck Mulligan's comment about Stephen Dedalus' theory about\nHamlet (\"He proves by algebra that Hamlet's grandson is Shakespeare's\ngrandfather and that he himself is the ghost of his own father\"), I will not\nsubject you to my various interpretations of how one individual is related\nto another, but I will append my list of nested names. If you know of any\nothers, please feel free to add to it--I doubt the list is exhaustive.\n\n1. Severian/Severa\n\n2. Severian/Inire\n\n3. Severian/Agia (+g)\n\n4. Agilus/Agia\n\n5. Thecla/Thea\n\n6. Camoena/Cumaean (+u)\n\n7. Katharine/Catherine (+c)\n\n8. Catherine/Carina\n\n9. Palaemon/Paeon\n\n10. Burgundofara/Gunnie (+ie) [The lone exception to the one letter\naddition, but hardly arguable.]\n\n11. Peryton/Purn (+u)\n\n12. Tzadkiel/Zak\n\n13. Domnicellae/Domnina\n\n14. Nicarete/Thea (+h)\n\n15. Pelagia/Agia\n\n16. Baldanders/Idas (+i)\n\n17. Famulimus/famula [famula=Merryn]\n\n18. Cyriaca/Cyby (+b)\n\n19. Dorcas/Casdoe (+e)\n\n20. Piaton/Pia\n\n21. Melito/Miles (+s)\n\n22. peryton/pteriope (+i)\n\n23. Meschiane/Meschia\n\nRobert Borski (also known as rik stroeb--at least in various usenet circles)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Reeves", "address": "abreeves at mail.utexas.edu" }, "date": "2002-06-20T00:34:21+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJuturna =says= she serves Abaia. But the Undines are absolutely not into\nhigh-tech gadgets, since they slosh around naked all the time. I think\nAndrew began to think of all the various dark lords' minions as Undines,\nsince Juturna is very prominently their servant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, I was just using \"Undine\" for Erebus and Abaia on down to Idas, when I\nreally ought to have made a distinction." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-06-20T01:31:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From Jeff Wilon:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Juturna =says= she serves Abaia. But the Undines are absolutely not into\nhigh-tech gadgets, since they slosh around naked all the time. I think\nAndrew began to think of all the various dark lords' minions as Undines,\nsince Juturna is very prominently their servant." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From me:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Don't think Scylla did any such thing. Undines however *can* swim\nthrough\nthe universe, and time, a la Brook Madrigot. Human spaceships must obey\nthe\nlaws of our universe, however. For some reason, this all makes sense to\nme." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From him:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whoa there! =One= of them, Juturna, is shown to do something like this.\nThis may or may not be her own ability like Severian and the Green Man,\nbut it may be something granted by Abaia, like Master Ash's house is\npowered by Erebus or somebody.\n\nOr it may be a skill their minions acquire in order to follow the paths\nlaid down by those same powerful beings. Juturna might only be able to\npoint into the fourth dimension while Severian is there. Idas certainly\ndoesn't have the ability to flee in any but the usual way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna is our sole adult acquaintance with this group of the Other People\nand I think she has to count for something representative in a novel..Her\ntalents seem thoroughly mythological to me, not \"granted by Abaia,\" and\nextremely feminine in a not entirely PC sense.. Idas is possibly only 10\nyears old, and in disguise--not a good contra-example.\n\n-alga\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-06-19T21:54:21+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Robert Borski wrote:\nBut again, unless you're willing to attribute this to nomenclatural\nsloppiness on the part of GW, the name \"Typhon\" _does_ indicate he is an\nalien...Either you believe it's fast and true, or you don't.<<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even if your assignations are true, why is it a given that Typhon bears an\n*alien* name (presuming \"alien\" means a non-human species). Why could GW\nhave not assigned mythological names to beings on Urth who are from other\nplanets, and mythological monster names for other-worldly invaders of Urth?\nOf course, if yours or this alternate nomenclature is a true Rosetta Stone,\nthen Nessus should be an alien being.\n\nActually, I'm unaware of any reason not presume all the beings (regardless\nof power) are not either humans who have extended their physical form and\npower through technology OR are whose existence, like the Hieros, is the\nresult of human activity (ala \"Tracking Song\").\n\nCan you elaborate on why even beings such as Erebus and Skylla could not be\nhuman?\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-06-20T21:32:43+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Robert Borski wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoting me first, then appending:\n\n\"For starters the names \"Juturna\" and \"Idas\" derive from classical\nmythology, and if we adhere to Wolfe's rule of names--a rule I believe\nto\nbe inviolable--such beings are aliens. Contrast this with \"Baldanders,\"\nwhich comes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of\nfish in my opinion.\"\n\n\"This would make Typhon an alien. While he =is= a tyrant from another\nstar,\nhe should be human as he is descended from emigrants of Urth stock.\"\n\nBut again, unless you're willing to attribute this to nomenclatural\nsloppiness on the part of GW, the name \"Typhon\" _does_ indicate he is an\nalien. After all, aliens do not travel to Urth, decide they need an\nUrth-friendly name, and then consult a book on mythology as opposed to a\nbook of saints. Similarly for new parents of a human child; they do not\nknow\ntheir own names derive from saintly exemplars. This is because the\nsaint/human-mythic/alien naming stratagem is an order imposed from\nwithout, by the author." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not necessarily. As Dan'l reminded us, \"saint\" doesn't go with\n\"human\" but with \"citizen of the Commonwealth\". Also, in some sense\nit's imposed by the author, of course, but maybe as a custom or even\nlaw of the Commonwealth. Maybe there's a certain list of names that\neveryone must be given. (I think they're the names of the \"eponyms\",\nbut Mantis, at least, interprets the eponyms another way.) Thus\nBaldanders's name may not be a \"wink\" from Wolfe to the reader,\nunrecognized by any character, to say that Baldanders is in a\ndifferent category from the other characters. It may mean that he's\nan immigrant to the Commonwealth, or that he's changed his name in\nkeeping with his removal of himself from the ordinary condition.\n(This might justify the innkeeper's \"pretended error\", though it\nreally doesn't need justification.) A difficulty with this\nsuggestion is that Severian never comments on whether or not names\nare customary or familiar.\n\n\n[snip a lot]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mindful of Buck Mulligan's comment about Stephen Dedalus' theory about\nHamlet (\"He proves by algebra that Hamlet's grandson is Shakespeare's\ngrandfather and that he himself is the ghost of his own father\"), I will\nnot\nsubject you to my various interpretations of how one individual is\nrelated\nto another, but I will append my list of nested names. If you know of\nany\nothers, please feel free to add to it--I doubt the list is exhaustive.\n\n1. Severian/Severa\n\n2. Severian/Inire\n\n3. Severian/Agia (+g)\n\n4. Agilus/Agia\n\n5. Thecla/Thea\n\n6. Camoena/Cumaean (+u)\n\n7. Katharine/Catherine (+c)\n\n8. Catherine/Carina\n\n9. Palaemon/Paeon\n\n10. Burgundofara/Gunnie (+ie) [The lone exception to the one letter\naddition, but hardly arguable.]\n\n11. Peryton/Purn (+u)\n\n12. Tzadkiel/Zak\n\n13. Domnicellae/Domnina\n\n14. Nicarete/Thea (+h)\n\n15. Pelagia/Agia\n\n16. Baldanders/Idas (+i)\n\n17. Famulimus/famula [famula=Merryn]\n\n18. Cyriaca/Cyby (+b)\n\n19. Dorcas/Casdoe (+e)\n\n20. Piaton/Pia\n\n21. Melito/Miles (+s)\n\n22. peryton/pteriope (+i)\n\n23. Meschiane/Meschia" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You missed one that may have simply been too obvious, and was\nmentioned in this thread: Diuturna/Juturna. Also Cyriaca/Ymar,\nMerryn/Ymar, Meschiane/Thea, Hethor/Thea, Hethor/Roche,\nVodalus/Talos, Jolenta/Talos, Jolenta/Ultan, Jolenta/Jonas,\nSquanto/Jonas, Squanto/Ultan, Kimleesoong/Miles, Kimleesoong/Melito,\nKimleesoong/Lomer, and Loyal to the Group of Seventeen/Mannea. If\nyou're allowed to use a letter more than once that was in the first\nname once, as in Cyriaca/Cyby and peryton/pteriope, then you have\nAbdiesus/Erebus, Abdiesus/Abaia, Barbatus/Abaia, Malrubius/Abaia,\nHethor/Drotte, and many more. Ash can be extracted from many names\n(because he's the descendant of many of the characters?), as can\nEata.\n\nImagine the amount of care Wolfe would have had to take to avoid\nputting in any connections of this type that he didn't mean!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Robert Borski (also known as rik stroeb--at least in various usenet\ncircles)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jay Fred forgot Morwenna/Lomer and Melito/Lomer." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-06-20T14:24:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wrote:\nEven if your assignations are true, why is it a given that Typhon bears an\n*alien* name (presuming \"alien\" means a non-human species). Why could GW\nhave not assigned mythological names to beings on Urth who are from other\nplanets, and mythological monster names for other-worldly invaders of Urth?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, if yours or this alternate nomenclature is a true Rosetta Stone,\nthen Nessus should be an alien being.<<<\n\nI don't think I was clear in this paragraph that I was proposing the\npossibility that all the aliens are human or human creations (in the case of\nthe Hieros, creations of human creations).\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-06-21T17:18:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jay Fred appending the following long list of nested names:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You missed one that may have simply been too obvious, and was\nmentioned in this thread: Diuturna/Juturna. Also Cyriaca/Ymar,\nMerryn/Ymar, Meschiane/Thea, Hethor/Thea, Hethor/Roche,\nVodalus/Talos, Jolenta/Talos, Jolenta/Ultan, Jolenta/Jonas,\nSquanto/Jonas, Squanto/Ultan, Kimleesoong/Miles, Kimleesoong/Melito,\nKimleesoong/Lomer, and Loyal to the Group of Seventeen/Mannea. If\nyou're allowed to use a letter more than once that was in the first\nname once, as in Cyriaca/Cyby and peryton/pteriope, then you have\nAbdiesus/Erebus, Abdiesus/Abaia, Barbatus/Abaia, Malrubius/Abaia,\nHethor/Drotte, and many more. Ash can be extracted from many names\n(because he's the descendant of many of the characters?), as can\nEata.\n\nJay Fred forgot Morwenna/Lomer and Melito/Lomer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hokey smokes! That's a long list--for which I commend and thank thee.\n\nSome preliminary thoughts.\n\nI deliberately did not include place names in the list because I was working\nexclusively with character names; besides Diuturna/Juturna, there's also\nFamulorum/famula and Ossipago/Os. Whether you see a connection between place\nname and character--in other words, are these nested clues?--remains for\neach individual reader to decide. (I've already commented on the Famulorum\nand Os connections in one of my NYRSF essays.)\n\nGiven that tBotNS contains over 400 named characters, it's also inevitable\nthat there should be a number of paired names that fall into the category of\nnested names (perhaps cryptonyms is a more descriptive word). Obviously, not\nall of them can be valid--so the problem becomes one of postulating\nrelationships between each set of names. I can do this for all the names in\nmy original list, and for a number of the pairs in yours. (E.g.,\nJolenta/Talos; Jolenta/Jonas; Kimleesoong/Lomer.) The rest I'm still\nthinking about--especially the Abdiesus pairs, given he seems a rather\nmysterious personage, with cyptonymic links to Abaia and Erebus (it's also\npossible that Thrax is Typhon's first capital, before he moves to Nessus).\n\nIn light of which, I'd like to rephrase my original postulate, making the\nSecond Rule of Names to read something like the following: when a second\nname in the Book of the New Sun is, if not entirely derivable from the\nfirst, requiring only the addition of a single letter, Wolfe may be implying\nkinship of some sort, whether literal or figurative.\n\nAs for the First Rule of Names, see \"Onomastics\" in mantis's Lexicon Urthus,\nwhere the scheme is presented much more clearly than my own rather dim\nrecall of it: i.e., \"People of the Commonwealth are named after saints, or\nafter mythological figures if they are allied with the Other People. The\nOther People and the Hierodules are named after mythological figures,\nnon-Olympians and Olympians respectively.\" This definition will probably\nsatisfy most who want to make Typhon and Talos human beings; petulantly, I\ndon't. But again, even if we accept mantis's scheme as legit, it's\ninteresting to contemplate the names that fall outside the box:\nSaintly/mythic figures Palaemon and Paeon; robotic alien Ossipago (whose\nname should be some variant of iron); necromancer Ceryx (unless Wolfe is\nimplying he's allied with the Other People), and Father Inire, who name is\nneither saintly nor mythic.\n\nAnd as much fun as all these named characters are, consider the plethora of\ncharacters whose names are never given, but should be identifiable:\nSeverian's paternal grandfather (the boatman); \"Jolenta\"; the castellan\nSeverian is taken to when he returns to Nessus as autarch (his limp\nidentifies him with Severians' bloodline); and the two nameless wretches\nSeverian visits in prison, especially the woman who nails children to\nfurniture, and whom the Claw will not heal (she's compared to Baldanders and\nJolenta--is she too unnaturally transformed?). To say nothing of many, many\nothers.\n\nRobert Borski" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-06-24T17:03:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Robert Borski wrote:\nJay Fred appending the following long list of nested names:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You missed one that may have simply been too obvious, and was\nmentioned in this thread: Diuturna/Juturna. Also Cyriaca/Ymar,\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jay Fred forgot Morwenna/Lomer and Melito/Lomer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hokey smokes! That's a long list--for which I commend and thank thee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A pleasure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some preliminary thoughts.\n\nI deliberately did not include place names in the list because I was\nworking\nexclusively with character names; besides Diuturna/Juturna, there's also\nFamulorum/famula and Ossipago/Os." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Got it.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Given that tBotNS contains over 400 named characters," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was wondering what the number was." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "it's also inevitable\nthat there should be a number of paired names that fall into the\ncategory of\nnested names (perhaps cryptonyms is a more descriptive word). Obviously,\nnot\nall of them can be valid--so the problem becomes one of postulating\nrelationships between each set of names. I can do this for all the names\nin\nmy original list, and for a number of the pairs in yours. (E.g.,\nJolenta/Talos; Jolenta/Jonas; Kimleesoong/Lomer.) The rest I'm still\nthinking about--especially the Abdiesus pairs, given he seems a rather\nmysterious personage, with cyptonymic links to Abaia and Erebus (it's\nalso\npossible that Thrax is Typhon's first capital, before he moves to\nNessus)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that case, don't overlook Abdiesus/Eusebia." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In light of which, I'd like to rephrase my original postulate, making\nthe\nSecond Rule of Names to read something like the following: when a second\nname in the Book of the New Sun is, if not entirely derivable from the\nfirst, requiring only the addition of a single letter, Wolfe may be\nimplying\nkinship of some sort, whether literal or figurative." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's a distinct improvement." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the First Rule of Names, see \"Onomastics\" in mantis's Lexicon\nUrthus,\nwhere the scheme is presented much more clearly than my own rather dim\nrecall of it: i.e., \"People of the Commonwealth are named after saints,\nor\nafter mythological figures if they are allied with the Other People. The\nOther People and the Hierodules are named after mythological figures,\nnon-Olympians and Olympians respectively.\" This definition will probably\nsatisfy most who want to make Typhon and Talos human beings; petulantly,\nI\ndon't. But again, even if we accept mantis's scheme as legit, it's\ninteresting to contemplate the names that fall outside the box:\nSaintly/mythic figures Palaemon and Paeon; robotic alien Ossipago (whose\nname should be some variant of iron); necromancer Ceryx (unless Wolfe is\nimplying he's allied with the Other People), and Father Inire, who name\nis\nneither saintly nor mythic." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good heavens, who are the Other People? And what are the mythological\nreferences for Barbatus (\"bearded\", right? My Penstemon barbatus\nis blooming spectacularly right now), Famulimus, and Inire?\n\nTalos is certainly not a human being in the sense of \"born of man\nand woman\", right? But I don't see why Typhon shouldn't be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And as much fun as all these named characters are, consider the plethora\nof\ncharacters whose names are never given, but should be identifiable:\nSeverian's paternal grandfather (the boatman); \"Jolenta\";" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why don't you think Jolenta is her real name?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the castellan\nSeverian is taken to when he returns to Nessus as autarch (his limp\nidentifies him with Severians' bloodline); and the two nameless wretches\nSeverian visits in prison, especially the woman who nails children to\nfurniture, and whom the Claw will not heal (she's compared to Baldanders\nand\nJolenta--is she too unnaturally transformed?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or just not fully human?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "To say nothing of many, many others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Many, many.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }