Subject: (urth) Thoughts on Undines, and other ramblings

From: Andrew Reeves <abreeves at mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2002 17:58:15 +0000

I'm quite thrilled to have discovered this group, and as such, I'm going
to air a few more thoughts that have nagged me concerning the main
villains of the Briah universe, the Undines.  First off, I'm trying to
make a list of what we do know about them:

-They are basically shaped like homo sapiens that never stop growing and
can breathe under water.

-They've been on Urth since around the time of Typhon, and were likely
brought by Scylla (can't remember her human name, and the book's not
handy) or an associate of hers, as related in Jonas's tale.

-There appears to be at least one on Blue.

-They're really into high tech and enslaving humanity (viz. Baldanders
and the Ascians).  They are the brains behind the Ascians.

-They can project their mental presences.

All of the above still leave a whole lot of questions.  The first of
these is the rather blas=E9 attitudes of Silkhorn and Severian near the
end of their series when actually meeting a representative of them.
When Severian meets Juturna underwater (if it's not a dream), he
basically gives her a tip of the hat and moves on.  Later, when Silkhorn
projects to Urth, he basically says, "Hey, I really dig Seawrack, tell
me how to find her."  Now, both of these men are Gene Wolfe's attempt to
draw saintly, Christian figures.  I would think that such figures would
have severe reservations about the way they dealt with such beings.  Of
course, Silkhorn doesn't really know the pedigree of our giants, but I
would think that the first thing Severian would do when he realized that
he has Godlike powers would be to try and find Erebus, Abaia et al and
finish them for good so that humankind could begin to climb back from
the level of hunter-gatherers without interference.  But then again,
since the Green Man doesn't indicate that Abaia and Erebus are a problem
(and forms non-Maoist sentences), perhaps someone else has.

That also brings to mind the whole question of the Commonwealth's force
projection capability.  By the age of Severian their stuck at a fairly
primitive state, but in the early days of the Autarchy, especially
around the time of Ymar, they probably had the tech level to go after
the giants in the water.  The other question of tech level and undines
is that there seem to be some indication that Urth under Typhon might
have had the capability of superluminal travel, since there's a really
good chance that Scylla went to Blue and brought back the undines.  If
that's the case, why would the Whorl move at sublight speeds?  Or am I
reading to much into the text?

One final ramble:  By the end of our series, Severian is but one AU from
the source of his power, and is probably going to have a hard time
dying, even of old age.  He may grow really, really bored.

Just rambling.

Andrew

--

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 03:22:24 +0000

>From newbie Andrew:

First, welcome, and prepare to be attacked at once! (Or slimed, heh heh.)

They are *not* the main villains of the Briah universe.

They are shaped like women. They are taken from German mythology: water
nymphs. The original Undine was created without a soul, married a mortal,
had a baby, gained a soul and its attendant woes. (Andersen took off on this
in his original "Little Mermaid" story, as I'm sure you'll recognize.) It's
Baldanders that never stops growing; there's no indication that the undines
don't have a limit, though it's a large one.

Not necessarily; they seem to have resources of their own ("swimming between
the stars").

The Mother is not an undine, if that's what you're referring to. Nor is
Seawrack. If there is an undine on Blue, I don't recall her, though one
could turn up--see above.

No, no and no. Erebus and Abaia, different entities entirely, perform those
functions. There's a hint that the undines are handmaidens or concubines to
them, but it could be myth and I doubt that it could be proved. The undines
seem mostly hedonistic, with infrequent moments of conscience. Some of them
(Idas) are clearly in the enemy camp. But Gunnie attacks Sev too!

Well, sort of. That also goes back to German myth and the Rhinemaidens (like
the Greek sirens, carelessly destructive). But so can a lot of other beings
on Urth.

>All of the above still leave a whole lot of questions.  The first of
these is the rather blasé attitudes of Silkhorn and Severian near the

Sev's not so saintly. And his powers are limited--he can't go around
blasting Ascian armies like one of Yaweh's apparatchik thugs...er, sorry,
Ratty, avenging angels. And I would imagine they're well protected. It is
definitely an untied thread to the first series though: as water-bound
beings I would think they'd be thrilled with the drowned Ushas.

Don't think Scylla did any such thing. Undines however *can* swim through
the universe, and time, a la Brook Madrigot. Human spaceships must obey the
laws of our universe, however. For some reason, this all makes sense to me.

What is an AU?

-alga

--

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From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 04:32:34 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: "Alice K. Turner" <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
> One final ramble:  By the end of our series, Severian is but
> one AU from the source of his power, and is probably going
> to have a hard time dying, even of old age.  He may grow really, really
bored.

>What is an AU?

An Astronmical Unit.  The average distance between the Urthand the Sun.
93,000,000 miles and some odd.   It is very easy to determine the size of
the solar system in terms of this unit, with a simple telescope/sextant, but
it was actually not so easy to determine exactly what this unit was until
echo-radar ranging of the planets was available .

    hartshorn

--

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From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 05:00:49 +0000

On Sun, 16 Jun 2002, Alice K. Turner wrote:
> And Someone Else wrote:

>> I'm quite thrilled to have discovered this group, and as such, I'm
>> going to air a few more thoughts that have nagged me concerning the
>> main villains of the Briah universe, the Undines.  First off, I'm
>> trying to make a list of what we do know about them:

> They are *not* the main villains of the Briah universe.

I'm not sure why the Briah universe should
be so-called, except to say that Mr. Wolfe's
qabalah, despite his many and other known
excellent qualities, is certainly no better
than it ought to be.

> They are shaped like women.

There are those who say that women are female H. Sapiens.

I've heard arguments one way and another, and I have to
say that I basically agree, though some of the arguments
are strong arguments.

Perhaps mere circumspection keeps the undine's menfolk
away when they are flirting with Severian.

>        There's a hint that the undines are handmaidens or concubines to
> them, but it could be myth and I doubt that it could be proved.

Juturna or one of her buds does tell Severian that this
is the case. Severian does lie, occasionally (or so he
claims), and certainly has his own point of view of most
things, but I think that he generally tells the truth as
he sees it. So the dream might be false, or Juturna (or
whoever) might be lying.

>> ...[B]oth [Severian and Silkhorn] are Gene Wolfe's attempt
>> to draw saintly, Christian figures.

You should read some of the histories of some of the saints.

I find St. Olaf's story to be particularly interesting,
if only because we have more than just the Church's story
in his case (he figures in a number of Icelandic sagas).

Anyway, you don't need to be of particularly saintly character
to be a Christian saint (though no one would deny that it can
be helpful): you just have to perform two demonstrable miracles
after you are Dead.

> Sev's not so saintly.

See above.

>                      And his powers are limited--he can't go around

Maybe someday (I would prefer after the third Latro novel)
Mr. Wolfe will write a second Dead Severian book (if we take
UotNS as the first).

>> One final ramble:  By the end of our series, Severian is but one AU
>> from the source of his power, and is probably going to have a hard time

> What is an AU?

In modern astronomy it is the average distance seperating
Earth from the Sun, if you go in for that sort of thing.

J.

--

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From: Andrew Reeves <abreeves at mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 12:27:13 +0000

> First, welcome, and prepare to be attacked at once! (Or slimed, heh heh.)

That's the fun of mailing lists and NG's, is it not?  :)

> They are *not* the main villains of the Briah universe.

My mistake.  Perhaps I ought to have called them the main villains on Urth, the
folks who are going for the enslavement of mankind.

> Not necessarily; they seem to have resources of their own ("swimming between

I'm aware that they have greater capabilities than movement through physical
space, but there's still some connection between them and Typhon's daughter that
I (with very few readings under my belt) cannot quite piece together.  Did
Jonas's story mention whether the beans will stop growing?

> could turn up--see above.

Maybe the other is not an Undine per se, but she definitely has some
relationship to Abaia, Erebus, and Typhon's sprat, otherwise Silkhorn wouldn't
have needed to make the trip to Urth to begin with.

> (Idas) are clearly in the enemy camp. But Gunnie attacks Sev too!

My mistake.  How about wording it, "Erebus, Abaia, and their Undine minions?"

> beings I would think they'd be thrilled with the drowned Ushas.

That always troubled me as well.  Yeah, I know Sev can't do anything like shoot
energy bolts, but he really ought to try and do *something*.

> Don't think Scylla did any such thing.

So who *was* the girl in Jonas's story?  And what then were the beans?  It
always seemed to me to fit neatly in with the rest of the cycle, especially
after we found out that there's definitlely a relationship between Blue's Mother
and Erebus and Abaia.

> Undines however *can* swim through

Yabbut, again, Jonas's tale plus events of _Short Sun_ indicate that *something*
is going on between that bratty daughter of Typhon's and the great monsters in
the sea.  What it is, I don't know, but it's there, and *seems* to fit in well
w/ Jonas's tale.

> dying, even of old age.  He may grow really, really bored.

Astronomical Unit.  The distance between earth and the sun.

--

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 16:35:04 +0000

Okay, some of this has been replied-to, but I think perhaps less
clearly than could be desired (given Andrew's follow-up). Andrew
Reeves, then, wrote:

> -[Undines] are basically shaped like homo sapiens that never stop 
> growing and can breathe under water.

The undines, as near as can be told, _are_ homo sapiens -- they are
more advanced cases of the process to which Baldanders has been 
subjecting himself.

> handy) or an associate of hers, as related in Jonas's tale.

Well, I presume that by "they" you mean not the undines themselves but
their masters, Erebus, Scylla, and Abaia (possibly others?). 

> -There appears to be at least one on Blue.

The Mother appears to be of the same race as, at least, the aquatic
Scylla of Urth.

(We need a generic name for these creatures ... "space-going water
monsters" seems a bit not quite the thing, if you know what I mean.
I'll use Scylloids for now. I'm sure one of the clever folk out 
there will have a better name.)

> and the Ascians).  They are the brains behind the Ascians.

Again, yes, the Scylloids appear to be the brains behind the Group of 
Seventeen which appears to rule Ascia. It is far less clear what the
relationship is between Baldanders and the Scylloids -- he seems to be
in a very real sense a self-made man; and the Hieros seem to deal with
him peacefully, as I suspect they do not with the Scylloidules.

> -They can project their mental presences.

I don't see this as at all clear. How do you mean?

> basically gives her a tip of the hat and moves on. 

Well, she's saved his life on at least one occasion; what do you 
expect him to do, smite her with Divine Wrath [tm, pat. pending]?

> Later, when Silkhorn projects to Urth, he basically says, "Hey,
> I really dig Seawrack, tell me how to find her."  Now, both of
> these men are Gene Wolfe's attempt to draw saintly, Christian
> figures.  I would think that such figures would have severe
> reservations about the way they dealt with such beings.

Now, the Narrator doesn't encounter an undine, as I recall, 
but Scylla-of-Urth. And what possible reason would he have for 
"severe reservations" (other than fear) in dealing with a being 
which he, a native of the _Whorl_ transplanted to Blue, perceives 
as a goddess? That is, he perceives her (correctly, as I think we
pretty-much-all agree) as being of the same general kind as the
Mother on Blue; and the Mother, he perceives as one of the gods
of Blue, of the Vanished People. Absent a direct revelation that
there is no God but the Outsider -- and, despite Silk's rapture
that contains the line "I know that You are the only god for me,"
neither Silk, Horn, nor the Narrator ever appears to receive such
a revelation -- there is no reason for the Narrator to think of
these beings either as false gods or as intrinsically evil; they
are, to him, perilous only as gods are, necessarily, perilous to
mortals.

For Wolfe, if he is drawing "saintly, Christian figures" is, in 
all cases, drawing "realistic," human and flawed, pictures of such 
figures -- and, what is more, drawing them as very much the products 
of their culture and upbringing. Severian ultimately transcends his 
upbringing as a torturer; Silk at least partially transcends his 
upbringing as a polytheist. Whether the Narrator transcends anything
but himself is unclear to me, at this rather early stage of study.

> I would think that the first thing Severian would do when he realized
> that he has Godlike powers would be to try and find Erebus, Abaia et
> al and finish them for good 

It is not at all clear that Severian's "powers" are _that_ "godlike."
I don't recall any examples of him blasting anything with bolts from 
his fingertips or any such thing. His "powers" seem to be primarily
over himself, and secondarily over time. Could he, perhaps, use the 
latter against Abaia and company? Perhaps, but I'm not at all clear 
how, given their essentially ageless nature.

On the other hand ... 

> But then again, since the Green Man doesn't indicate that Abaia
> and Erebus are a problem (and forms non-Maoist sentences), perhaps
> someone else has.

Indeed, possibly the rackings of the Urth in the passage of the
New Sun has done for them -- consider, if the depth in which 
Abaia lay were suddenly raised-up as a continent, what would be
the effect on Abaia? His rotting corpse would also provide a great
deal of fertilizer ... though it would make the main part of that
continent pretty-much uninhabitable for some time. Perhaps, then,
there are in fact only a few people left on a few islands, and they
have to live there while the corpses of the Scylloids, rather like
that of Ymir, provide the new-risen continents with the stuff of
life, while these corpses deteriorate, their bones become mountains,
and forests and such grow in the new soil. Perhaps: it does seem a
rather Lupine approach, now I think about it ...

> the giants in the water. 

Maybe ... and maybe not; the Scylloids seem to be very advanced beings
indeed. Further, it may not have been as clear at the time of Ymar that 
they were a threat as it is by Severian's time.

> The other question of tech level and undines

By the time of Typhon, the culture and technology of Urth is already 
well-advanced in its decadance and decline. Typhon has access to some
FTL transport but not to the technology required to build it. 

--

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 17:01:38 +0000

Idle Idas question:

Does she ever give her real name? It ought to be a water-nymph's name, like
Jurturna (spririt of Lake Diuturna). Idas is a man's name; he was one of a
princely pair of twins coeval with, but not nearly as famous as, Castor and
Pollux.

-alga

--

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From: Robert Borski <rborski at charter.net>
Date: Mon, 17 Jun 2002 22:54:43 +0000

The landbound Blattid arguing:

"The undines, as near as can be told, _are_ homo sapiens -- they are more
advanced cases of the process to which Baldanders has been subjecting
himself."

Not sure I agree with this.

For starters the names "Juturna" and "Idas" derive from classical mythology,
and if we adhere to Wolfe's rule of names--a rule I believe to be
inviolable--such beings are aliens. Contrast this with "Baldanders," which
comes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of fish in
my opinion.

There's also evidence that they experience time in a direction opposite to
ours. In URTH at least, when Severian asks Juturna if she remembers saving
him as a boy, she responds, "No. It hasn't yet happened. It will, because
you spoke."

Idas, I've also argued before, may well be the daughter of Baldanders.
Severian's first guess is that she's ten years old, which would make her the
right age if Baldanders mated with Juturna after the Piteous Gate incident.
(This would also help explain why Baldanders can breathe
underwater--Severian is offered the same gift for mating with Juturna. "You
will breathe--by our gift--as easily as you breathe the thin, weak wind
here.") Idas also proudly admits to burning the letter from Malrubius
proclaiming Severian to be the true Autarch of Urth--something which may
have especially grated upon her father, since he too was once in the running
for the New Sun candidacy. And lastly, Idas is a nested name--save for one
letter, being derivable from Baldanders--a pattern Wolfe uses over and over
and over in BotNS to confer relatedness.

I looked in vain for a _Saint_Idas, since she's attempting to pass as human
(this would put her in the same category as Palaemon and Paeon, both of whom
possess names that have both saintly and mythic exemplars), but the closest
I could find was Ida, although my various dictionaries of saints are far
from complete.

Also argued here, but never accepted, is the notion that Blue's Mother is an
underwater godling meant to host the eventually downloaded Scylla--just as
the other godlings were designed to host Pas, Echidna, and various sprats
once planetfall had been achieved.

Robert Borski

--

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:36:53 +0000

From: "Robert Borski" <rborski at charter.net

> Not sure I agree with this.

Definitely don't agree with this--i.e. agree with RB.

> comes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of fish in

Quite correct, and see my earlier comments on undines and Rhinemaidens.

> him as a boy, she responds, "No. It hasn't yet happened. It will, because

That's because, as a mythological creature, she has access to Brook
Madrigot/corridors of  time-traveling, not because she is living backward,
as the hierodules do.

> and over in BotNS to confer relatedness.

I think this is nonsense, or, more politely, highly speculative. And Idas is
not a nested name. His twin was Lynceas. All Idas means is " from or of Mt.
Ida" (in Africa) which doesn't explain much. Ida as a female name is from a
different tradition.

> once planetfall had been achieved.

O heavens, what conceivable evidence is there for this?!!

-alga

--

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From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 01:54:51 +0000

> once planetfall had been achieved.

Is Silk a godling?  Surely Silk was the body planned for Pas, what with
his near miraculous charisma.  And the symmetry with Piaton is too good to
ignore.  (i.e. an intended host body turning the tables on Typhon).

-Rostrum

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From: Josh Geller <dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net>
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2002 02:06:38 +0000

Ah! And Mint would be the body planned for what's-her-name, the war
goddess.

And Mucor the spooky one.

J.

___

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:20:31 +0000

> From: "Alice K. Turner" <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>

[Undine Discussion] 

> Not necessarily; they seem to have resources of their own ("swimming between

See below.
 
> (Idas) are clearly in the enemy camp. But Gunnie attacks Sev too!

Juturna =says= she serves Abaia. But the Undines are absolutely not into
high-tech gadgets, since they slosh around naked all the time. I think
Andrew began to think of all the various dark lords' minions as Undines,
since Juturna is very prominently their servant.
 
> laws of our universe, however. For some reason, this all makes sense to me.

Whoa there! =One= of them, Juturna, is shown to do something like this.
This may or may not be her own ability like Severian and the Green Man,
but it may be something granted by Abaia, like Master Ash's house is
powered by Erebus or somebody. 

Or it may be a skill their minions acquire in order to follow the paths
laid down by those same powerful beings. Juturna might only be able to
point into the fourth dimension  while Severian is there. Idas certainly
doesn't have the ability to flee in any but the usual way.
 
-- 
Jeff Wilson
How Am I Posting? 1-800-555-6789
"If your SecOp can see you, so can the enemy." -Cpt Law

--

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From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 06:38:54 +0000

>      From: 
>           "Robert Borski" <rborski at charter.net>

> Not sure I agree with this.

	There is precedent, with the royal jelly of the exultants.
 
> comes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of fish in

This would make Typhon an alien. While he =is= a tyrant from another
star, he's should be human as he is descended from emigrants of Urth
stock. 
 
> right age if Baldanders mated with Juturna after the Piteous Gate incident.

	I don't think literal human-alien hybrids "fit" the BotNS. Are there
any other examples of unaided cross-species mating?

> here.")

	But Baldanders is already established as being able to modify himself
to suit; he doesn't necessarily need their gift.

--

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From: Robert Borski <rborski at charter.net>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 17:25:01 +0000

Jeff Wilson quoting me first, then appending:

"For starters the names "Juturna" and "Idas" derive from classical
mythology,  and if we adhere to Wolfe's rule of names--a rule I believe to
be inviolable--such beings are aliens. Contrast this with "Baldanders,"
which comes to us from Borges via Grimelshausen--quite another kettle of
fish in my opinion."

"This would make Typhon an alien. While he =is= a tyrant from another star,
he should be human as he is descended from emigrants of Urth stock."

But again, unless you're willing to attribute this to nomenclatural
sloppiness on the part of GW, the name "Typhon" _does_ indicate he is an
alien. After all, aliens do not travel to Urth, decide they need an
Urth-friendly name, and then consult a book on mythology as opposed to a
book of saints. Similarly for new parents of a human child; they do not know
their own names derive from saintly exemplars. This is because the
saint/human-mythic/alien naming stratagem is an order imposed from without,
by the author. Either you believe it's fast and true, or you don't; if the
latter, then there's not much point in arguing further since we both
disagree about the convention. If the former, however, we must further
account for several possible contradictions; Typhon bears an alien name, for
example, as does Ossipago (seemingly an automaton) and Ceryx (who comes
across as more human than alien); then there's Palaemon and Paeon, both of
whom have saintly _and_ mythic exemplars. But how can they be both saints
and aliens? Resolving these contradictons, in my opinion, is very important
to a true understanding of tbotNS--as I've indicated before in a number of
published essays (for which see further gloss).

What _I_ call the nested names rule is equally important: i.e., where a
second name is, if not entirely, derivable from a parent name, requiring
_only the addition of a single letter_--such interrelatedness being Wolfe's
way of conferring the two are somehow related, either literally or
figuratively (or in some cases making both individuals the same person).

Mindful of Buck Mulligan's comment about Stephen Dedalus' theory about
Hamlet ("He proves by algebra that Hamlet's grandson is Shakespeare's
grandfather and that he himself is the ghost of his own father"), I will not
subject you to my various interpretations of how one individual is related
to another, but I will append my list of nested names. If you know of any
others, please feel free to add to it--I doubt the list is exhaustive.

1. Severian/Severa

2. Severian/Inire

3. Severian/Agia  (+g)

4. Agilus/Agia

5. Thecla/Thea

6. Camoena/Cumaean  (+u)

7. Katharine/Catherine (+c)

8. Catherine/Carina

9. Palaemon/Paeon

10. Burgundofara/Gunnie  (+ie) [The lone exception to the one letter
addition, but hardly arguable.]

11. Peryton/Purn   (+u)

12. Tzadkiel/Zak

13. Domnicellae/Domnina

14. Nicarete/Thea  (+h)

15. Pelagia/Agia

16. Baldanders/Idas  (+i)

17. Famulimus/famula  [famula=Merryn]

18. Cyriaca/Cyby  (+b)

19. Dorcas/Casdoe  (+e)

20. Piaton/Pia

21. Melito/Miles   (+s)

22. peryton/pteriope  (+i)

23. Meschiane/Meschia

Robert Borski (also known as rik stroeb--at least in various usenet circles)

--

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From: Andrew Reeves <abreeves at mail.utexas.edu>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 00:34:21 +0000

> since Juturna is very prominently their servant.

Yeah, I was just using "Undine" for Erebus and Abaia on down to Idas, when I
really ought to have made a distinction.

--

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 01:31:25 +0000

>From Jeff Wilon:

>From me:

>From him:

> doesn't have the ability to flee in any but the usual way.

Juturna is our sole adult acquaintance with this group of the Other People
and I think she has to count for something representative in a novel..Her
talents seem thoroughly mythological to me, not "granted by Abaia," and
extremely feminine in a not entirely PC sense.. Idas is possibly only 10
years old, and in disguise--not a good contra-example.

-alga

-alga

--

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Wed, 19 Jun 2002 21:54:21 +0000

sloppiness on the part of GW, the name "Typhon" _does_ indicate he is an
alien...Either you believe it's fast and true, or you don't.<<<

Even if your assignations are true, why is it a given that Typhon bears an
*alien* name (presuming "alien" means a non-human species). Why could GW
have not assigned mythological names to beings on Urth who are from other
planets, and mythological monster names for other-worldly invaders of Urth?
Of course, if yours or this alternate nomenclature is a true Rosetta Stone,
then Nessus should be an alien being.

Actually, I'm unaware of any reason not presume all the beings (regardless
of power) are not either humans who have extended their physical form and
power through technology OR are whose existence, like the Hieros, is the
result of human activity (ala "Tracking Song").

Can you elaborate on why even beings such as Erebus and Skylla could not be
human?

-- Crush

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 21:32:43 +0000

--- Robert Borski <rborski at charter.net> wrote:
> saint/human-mythic/alien naming stratagem is an order imposed from
> without, by the author.

Not necessarily.  As Dan'l reminded us, "saint" doesn't go with
"human" but with "citizen of the Commonwealth".  Also, in some sense
it's imposed by the author, of course, but maybe as a custom or even
law of the Commonwealth.  Maybe there's a certain list of names that
everyone must be given.  (I think they're the names of the "eponyms",
but Mantis, at least, interprets the eponyms another way.)  Thus
Baldanders's name may not be a "wink" from Wolfe to the reader,
unrecognized by any character, to say that Baldanders is in a
different category from the other characters.  It may mean that he's
an immigrant to the Commonwealth, or that he's changed his name in
keeping with his removal of himself from the ordinary condition.
(This might justify the innkeeper's "pretended error", though it
really doesn't need justification.)  A difficulty with this
suggestion is that Severian never comments on whether or not names
are customary or familiar.

[snip a lot]

> 22. peryton/pteriope  (+i)

You missed one that may have simply been too obvious, and was
mentioned in this thread: Diuturna/Juturna.  Also Cyriaca/Ymar,
Merryn/Ymar, Meschiane/Thea, Hethor/Thea, Hethor/Roche,
Vodalus/Talos, Jolenta/Talos, Jolenta/Ultan, Jolenta/Jonas,
Squanto/Jonas, Squanto/Ultan, Kimleesoong/Miles, Kimleesoong/Melito,
Kimleesoong/Lomer, and Loyal to the Group of Seventeen/Mannea.  If
you're allowed to use a letter more than once that was in the first
name once, as in Cyriaca/Cyby and peryton/pteriope, then you have
Abdiesus/Erebus, Abdiesus/Abaia, Barbatus/Abaia, Malrubius/Abaia,
Hethor/Drotte, and many more.  Ash can be extracted from many names
(because he's the descendant of many of the characters?), as can
Eata.

Imagine the amount of care Wolfe would have had to take to avoid
putting in any connections of this type that he didn't mean!

> Robert Borski (also known as rik stroeb--at least in various usenet

Jay Fred forgot Morwenna/Lomer and Melito/Lomer.

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Thu, 20 Jun 2002 14:24:38 +0000

then Nessus should be an alien being.<<<

I don't think I was clear in this paragraph that I was proposing the
possibility that all the aliens are human or human creations (in the case of
the Hieros, creations of human creations).

-- Crush

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From: Robert Borski <rborski at charter.net>
Date: Fri, 21 Jun 2002 17:18:06 +0000

> Jay Fred forgot Morwenna/Lomer and Melito/Lomer.

Hokey smokes! That's a long list--for which I commend and thank thee.

Some preliminary thoughts.

I deliberately did not include place names in the list because I was working
exclusively with character names; besides Diuturna/Juturna, there's also
Famulorum/famula and Ossipago/Os. Whether you see a connection between place
name and character--in other words, are these nested clues?--remains for
each individual reader to decide. (I've already commented on the Famulorum
and Os connections in one of my NYRSF essays.)

Given that tBotNS contains over 400 named characters, it's also inevitable
that there should be a number of paired names that fall into the category of
nested names (perhaps cryptonyms is a more descriptive word). Obviously, not
all of them can be valid--so the problem becomes one of postulating
relationships between each set of names. I can do this for all the names in
my original list, and for a number of the pairs in yours. (E.g.,
Jolenta/Talos; Jolenta/Jonas; Kimleesoong/Lomer.) The rest I'm still
thinking about--especially the Abdiesus pairs, given he seems a rather
mysterious personage, with cyptonymic links to Abaia and Erebus (it's also
possible that Thrax is Typhon's first capital, before he moves to Nessus).

In light of which, I'd like to rephrase my original postulate, making the
Second Rule of Names to read something like the following: when a second
name in the Book of the New Sun is, if not entirely derivable from the
first, requiring only the addition of a single letter, Wolfe may be implying
kinship of some sort, whether literal or figurative.

As for the First Rule of Names, see "Onomastics" in mantis's Lexicon Urthus,
where the scheme is presented much more clearly than my own rather dim
recall of it: i.e., "People of the Commonwealth are named after saints, or
after mythological figures if they are allied with the Other People. The
Other People and the Hierodules are named after mythological figures,
non-Olympians and Olympians respectively." This definition will probably
satisfy most who want to make Typhon and Talos human beings; petulantly, I
don't. But again, even if we accept mantis's scheme as legit, it's
interesting to contemplate the names that fall outside the box:
Saintly/mythic figures Palaemon and Paeon; robotic alien Ossipago (whose
name should be some variant of iron); necromancer Ceryx (unless Wolfe is
implying he's allied with the Other People), and Father Inire, who name is
neither saintly nor mythic.

And as much fun as all these named characters are, consider the plethora of
characters whose names are never given, but should be identifiable:
Severian's paternal grandfather (the boatman); "Jolenta"; the castellan
Severian is taken to when he returns to Nessus as autarch (his limp
identifies him with Severians' bloodline); and the two nameless wretches
Severian visits in prison, especially the woman who nails children to
furniture, and whom the Claw will not heal (she's compared to Baldanders and
Jolenta--is she too unnaturally transformed?). To say nothing of many, many
others.

Robert Borski

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Mon, 24 Jun 2002 17:03:23 +0000

> > mentioned in this thread: Diuturna/Juturna.  Also Cyriaca/Ymar,
...

> Hokey smokes! That's a long list--for which I commend and thank thee.

A pleasure.

> Famulorum/famula and Ossipago/Os.

Got it.
...

> Given that tBotNS contains over 400 named characters,

I was wondering what the number was.

> it's also inevitable

In that case, don't overlook Abdiesus/Eusebia.
 
> kinship of some sort, whether literal or figurative.

I think that's a distinct improvement.

> neither saintly nor mythic.

Good heavens, who are the Other People?  And what are the mythological
references for Barbatus ("bearded", right?  My Penstemon barbatus
is blooming spectacularly right now), Famulimus, and Inire?

Talos is certainly not a human being in the sense of "born of man
and woman", right?  But I don't see why Typhon shouldn't be.

> Severian's paternal grandfather (the boatman); "Jolenta";

Why don't you think Jolenta is her real name?

> the castellan
> Jolenta--is she too unnaturally transformed?).

Or just not fully human?

> To say nothing of many, many others.

Many, many.

Jerry Friedman

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