{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3334", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3334, "subject": "Last questions on Short Sun", "messages": 5, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-07-04T04:32:36+00:00", "last": "2002-07-05T18:08:49+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Stephen Case", "address": "scase at olivet.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-04T04:32:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Last questions on Short Sun", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Today I finished Return to the Whorl, thus completing my second read of the Short Sun books. I remain as convinced as ever that they were a superb story, reaching a satisfactory conclusion and tying up most of the loose ends-- enough, in my opinion. After finishing the books again, I'm left with only a few questions. I apologize if they've already been answered somewhere.\n\nThe first struck me over and over as I was reading On Blue's Waters, though perhaps it was partially answered in Return to the Whorl. It is this: why does Horn hate Sinew so much? He hates his own son enough that when he shows up on the river to Pajurocu, Horn writes that he would have killed him if Seawrack hadn't been around. Why? Horn has his faults, but he seems to be a resonable, loving father, at least to the twins. Why the animosity towards Sinew? I wondered if it had something to do with Sinew not having a soul or something along those lines as a result of being bit by Jahlee as a child. Return to the Whorl seemed to confirm this. As Jahlee is dying, she reveils The Secret, which seems to be that to have intelligent children, the Inhumas must steal the mind from a human child. She says \"Without blood, our children have no minds . . . Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I drank the blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the ONLY ONE who lived with the mind it took from yours.\" Whether or not this is The Secret, it satisfies me. What I still don't understand though, and what this passage seems to be saying, is that somehow Sinew did not have a mind/soul/whatever. Is this why Horn hated him? Sinew seemed not to hold any particular animosity towards his father other than the normal willfull teenage stubbornness. Did Horn somehow subconsiously feel he was mindless or soul-less? If that is true, hat does it say about other characters in the text? Can we assume anyone else's mind was stolen by being bit by inhuma? Mora's grandmother perhaps?\n\nQuestion number two: What exactly is the deal with Pig? We know he was a godling, worked as a mercenary while doing Pas's will by driving people from the Whorl, and killed an auger in front of his window while looting a town. When this happened, he was possessed by a piece of the piece of Silk that became a part of Pas in Exodus. (?) The piece of Silk drove him to find Hyacinth's body in the manse where she and Silk lived and later to mourne her in Blood's villa. Horn/Silk made contact with the piece of Silk in Pig and restored his sight by donating an eye. I guess my question then is, do I have it right? What purpose did Pig serve? I know some speculated that Pig actually killed or at least fought with Silk at the old manse before Horn came along, but this doesn't seem to fit with what I think is Silk's obvious suicide attempt. If he didn't try to kill himself, that very last scene with Remora doesn't make sense.\n\nOkay, last and most troubling question: Why doesn't Silk/Horn eat? Wolfe makes it clear all the way through Green's Jungles and Return to the Whorl that he eats very little, if anything. And yet I can't seem to find any other clues that would explain this. The only possibility I can imagine-- and don't want to-- is that somehow Silk/Horn is an inhumu. The biggest clue I could find was near the end of Ch. 18 in Return to the Whorl. Hoof, Silk/Horn, and Juganu are on the boat after returning from the Red Sun Whorl. Hoof writes: \"Father nodded and sipped from the wine bottle; sometimes it seemed like he was just pretending to eat and drink, and this was one of them . . . Juganu had been listening to us, and had even swallowed some soup.\" Here not only does it reiterate that Silk/Horn eats little to nothing, but it shows that inhumu can eat a little. Silk/Horn an inhumu? I can't even begin to figure this one out.\n\nAny illuminaion would be appreciated,\n-Steve" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-07-05T11:18:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Last questions on Short Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Stephen Case\" \nThe first struck me over and over as I was reading On Blue's Waters,\nthough perhaps it was partially answered in Return to the Whorl. It is\nthis: why does Horn hate Sinew so much? <<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For those of us who get the Digest, this was an interesting one because Tony\nEllis was also speculatiing why Victor hated Roy Trenchard so much. And of\ncourse #5 hates his father too, with good reason. This does seem to be a\nrecurrent theme in Wolfe's books, and a somewhat unusual one. Either you can\ntake it as sheer soap opera, something that Wolfe considers a suffiently\ngood plot device to use over and over, or you can wonder darkly about his\nrelations with his own father. I'm not confusing father/son here, it's two\nsides of the coin. In IGJ, which Wolfe dedicated to his daughters, rather an\neffort is made to emphasize father-daughter affection, but I couldn't help\nthinking that it *was* a conscious effort, possibly to defray criticism,\nthough I was still touched by it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Okay, last and most troubling question: Why doesn't Silk/Horn eat?<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was my big question too on first reading the series. I don't think you\ncan conclude that Horn/Silk is an inhumu, though that is a (somewhat clumsy,\nIMO) red herring tossed out. I think it is a little simpler. Horn was a big,\nhearty man used to eating and drinking heartily. His lifelong instincts are\nto do the same in his new slimmer body, but the body, used to more frugal\nfare (as we know from several scenes in SS), rebels. Hence the constant\nconflict. I'll inject a personal note here: as I get older I find that I\nsimply cannot eat as I did once, and I have noticed that really old people\noften tend to pick--the body does make rules. (Of course, seeing pictures of\nGW, I don't think he has that problem.)\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-07-05T11:32:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Last questions on Short Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whoops, I meant LS in my above post!\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-07-05T16:34:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Last questions on Short Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- Stephen Case wrote:\nToday I finished Return to the Whorl, thus completing my second read of\nthe Short Sun books. I remain as convinced as ever that they were a\nsuperb story, reaching a satisfactory conclusion and tying up most of\nthe loose ends-- enough, in my opinion. After finishing the books\nagain, I'm left with only a few questions. I apologize if they've\nalready been answered somewhere.\n\nThe first struck me over and over as I was reading On Blue's Waters,\nthough perhaps it was partially answered in Return to the Whorl. It is\nthis: why does Horn hate Sinew so much? He hates his own son enough\nthat when he shows up on the river to Pajurocu, Horn writes that he\nwould have killed him if Seawrack hadn't been around. Why? Horn has\nhis faults, but he seems to be a resonable, loving father, at least to\nthe twins. Why the animosity towards Sinew? I wondered if it had\nsomething to do with Sinew not having a soul or something along those\nlines as a result of being bit by Jahlee as a child. Return to the\nWhorl seemed to confirm this. As Jahlee is dying, she reveils The\nSecret, which seems to be that to have intelligent children, the Inhumas\nmust steal the mind from a human child. She says \"Without blood, our\nchildren have no minds . . . Their minds are yours. Here, long ago, I\ndrank the blood of your small son. Krait was my son, the ONLY ONE who\nlived with the mind it took from yours.\" Whether or not this is The\nSecret, it satisfies me. What I still don't understand though, and what\nthis passage seems to be saying, is that somehow Sinew did not have a\nmind/soul/whatever. Is this why Horn hated him? Sinew seemed not to\nhold any particular animosity towards his father other than the normal\nwillfull teenage stubbornness. Did Horn somehow subconsiously feel he\nwas mindless or soul-less? If that is true, hat does it say about other\ncharacters in the text? Can we assume anyone else's mind was stolen by\nbeing bit by inhuma? Mora's grandmother perhaps?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a comment somewhere, I think in OBW, about the boys' or\nspecifically Sinew's having come between Horn and Nettle, so that may\nbe part of Horn's reason for hating Sinew. (And Sinew was apparently\nconceived the first time Horn and Nettle had sex, so they had about\nthe minimum possible time as just a couple, and it was hardly in\nhoneymoon surroundings.) Also, as you say Sinew's behavior is\nfairly normal for his age, but Horn never figures out any way to\nrespond. He apparently feels he has to dominate his son at all times,\nbut Sinew has ways of frustrating that. Horn also can't express his\nlove for Sinew--the strongest evidence for which is that he comes\nto love Krait. And his admirable sense of duty won't let him leave.\nThis is the sort of tangle that, I think, leads to family hatreds.\nHorn's is stronger than usual, but I didn't think it was out of the\nquestion.\n\nAlso, his memories as he writes the trilogy are colored by his\nknowledge that Sinew fought him on Green--and worse yet, was probably\nright to do so.\n\nYour speculation that Jahlee really stole Sinew's soul, so he didn't\nhave one, is interesting. However, can a person function without a\nsoul? (And if so, can you tell? See Raymond Smullyan.)\n\n[Snip Pig question. For some reason he's one of the least interesting\nimportant characters to me.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay, last and most troubling question: Why doesn't Silk/Horn eat? \nWolfe makes it clear all the way through Green's Jungles and Return to\nthe Whorl that he eats very little, if anything. And yet I can't seem\nto find any other clues that would explain this. The only possibility I\ncan imagine-- and don't want to-- is that somehow Silk/Horn is an\ninhumu. The biggest clue I could find was near the end of Ch. 18 in\nReturn to the Whorl. Hoof, Silk/Horn, and Juganu are on the boat after\nreturning from the Red Sun Whorl. Hoof writes: \"Father nodded and\nsipped from the wine bottle; sometimes it seemed like he was just\npretending to eat and drink, and this was one of them . . . Juganu had\nbeen listening to us, and had even swallowed some soup.\" Here not only\ndoes it reiterate that Silk/Horn eats little to nothing, but it shows\nthat inhumu can eat a little. Silk/Horn an inhumu? I can't even begin\nto figure this one out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nI would never have considered the possibility that Silk/Horn is an\ninhumu, but it's come up on the list. Apparently John Clute said in\na review that it's fairly obvious. The consensus here, though,\nseemed to be that it can't really be right.\n\nI remember two versions of the theory. One is that that at some point\non Green, an inhumu drank Horn's blood and took over his spirit (and\npassed it on to its brood?). This spirit was later detached by the\nNeighbor and sent to Silk's body. This theory doesn't explain\nSilk/Horn's small appetite, of course, unless it's somehow a habit\nfrom his sojourn in an inhumu's body (but then why doesn't he have a\ntaste for blood, or at least beef tea?).\n\nThe other theory is that, in more or less the same way, Silk/Horn on\nBlue is an inhumu. This explains why he asks to be excused from\nrunning and wrestling, and is hard to refute because anything that\nconflicts with it in the main narration can be explained as the\nnarrator's own self-serving misdirection. However, the other\nnarrators don't seem to notice anything. (Aha! A cover-up!) Also,\nthe inhumi consistently seem to impersonate children, women who are\nnot big, and little old men. It seems unlikely that one could\nimpersonate a tall man like Silk. Silk/Horn *could* have made up\nthe inhumi's apparent smallness, but it would have been very subtle\nof him to do so--and what would have been the point, since he was\nwriting for Bluvian readers, not us, and his readers would have\nknown who the inhumi were capable of impersonating.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Inire", "address": "inire at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-07-05T18:08:49+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Last questions on Short Sun", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "--- Jerry Friedman wrote:\n" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would never have considered the possibility that\nSilk/Horn is an\ninhumu, but it's come up on the list. Apparently\nJohn Clute said in\na review that it's fairly obvious. The consensus\nhere, though,\nseemed to be that it can't really be right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "these discussions come at such an important time, as I\nam just finishing RttW. These answer nagging questions\nbefore I had to ask!\n\nas for Horn-as-inhumu, consider Oreb; he seems to ken\noutright any inhumu present, and can't keep it to\nhimself. Would this little inhumu alarm continue to\nstay with Horn/Silk just out of loyalty? he seems only\ncompelled to stay around known inhumu when ordered to,\nand then only barely.\n\nHorn-as-inhumu DOES make a lot of sense when one\nconsiders the transformation that takes place over the\nscope of the SS books, and the eating-very-little ties\nright in, but I can't recall the intimation that his\nimitation could be so good as to fool Oreb.\n\n=====\nJeff \"My dice hate me!\" Miller \n\n\"The idea of verifying facts about the world through controlled repetition seems alien to just about everyone with the _possible_ exception of Fr Inire, and he's a bug-eyed space monster. . .\" \n Gaming to keep War out of RealTime! \n 85 VF500F 'Contraceptor'\n **Specify Type Of Goat**" } ] } ] }