{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3339", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3339, "subject": "Suicide & Despair", "messages": 11, "voices": 7, "first": "2002-07-11T14:03:19+00:00", "last": "2002-07-15T18:40:34+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-11T14:03:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:55 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:\nIf Silk wasn't trying to commit suicide over Hyacinth's casket, then what \nis the significance of Silk/Horn and Remora's conversation about death and \nsuicide at the end of the series? I thought the reason that kept Silk \nretreated into the Horn persona through most of the books was that he \ncouldn't face the fact of himself committing suicide. When he finally \ndid, he emerged. Didn't the Neighbors say something when Horn was dying \nabout \"transfering him into a healthy body who's soul was dying\" or words \nto that effect? I took this to mean that Silk's body was relatively \nhealthy-- he hadn't gone far enough to truly be in danger of death-- but \nthat his soul was dying, i.e. he had decided to end it all, made the \ndecision to quit living, given up. If Wolfe is a Christian, than this is \none of the greatest moral crimes a man can commit. If Silk is a servant \nof the Outsider, the same is true, and the fact that he committed it, fell \nso far, is why he stayed hidden in Horn for so long. I think the suicide \ntheory explains things rather nicely. What holes do you guys see?\n\n-Steve" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " For me, this same evidence points not to active suicide but to the \nsin of despair, of losing faith in God. These are strongly linked, of \ncourse. Despair is one of the greatest of sins. I think all the evidence \nthat has been evinced to show Silk attempting suicide works better with the \nsin of despair. Silk's wounds I have always taken as the result of some \nkind of attack that left Hyacinth dead and Silk in despair. It seems pretty \nclear from the evidence in RTTW that Silk's ministry/mission has been over \nfor some time, and that's depressing enough -- loss of calling after a \nseason of heroic acts is very depressing. Now Hyacinth is dead. Depression \nand despair, yes. But suicide? I think not.\n Anyway, despair is a kind of soul-suicide, so if you are saying, \n\"Silk has sunk into despair and black depression, and is contemplating \nsuicide,\" you may be right. But I don't think the wounds in his arms are \nself-inflicted.\n Viewing the subsequent narrative as a process by which Silk \nrecovers his faith, and thus his self, might be worthwhile investigating. \nWhat are the steps through which the Outsider takes him?\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-12T00:10:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It seems to me that Silk's throwing away a knife might be a knife \nhe used in a vain attempt to ward off attackers, not one he used to inflict \nwounds on himself. The Neighbor says Silk's body is okay. It seems to me \nthat if he had been trying for suicide, he would have succeeded. But I may \nbe wrong.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Inire", "address": "inire at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-07-12T00:17:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Jordan wrote:\n It seems to me that Silk's throwing away a\nknife might be a knife \nhe used in a vain attempt to ward off attackers, not\none he used to inflict \nwounds on himself. The Neighbor says Silk's body is\nokay. It seems to me \nthat if he had been trying for suicide, he would\nhave succeeded. But I may \nbe wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just had a horrid thought: all this talk about arm\nwounds, a lack of memory of how they got that way and\nthe carriage of a weapon reminds me of a murder in San\nDiego years ago (I grew up there); is it possible that\nSilk/Horn killed someone with that knife and the\nwounds are the result of his victim fighting back?\n\ncould that explain the brevity and hostility he\nexperienced in the next encounter (where he gathered\nthe corn)? Had they heard something?\n\nOut on a limb, i realize...\n\n=====\nJeff \"My dice hate me!\" Miller \n\n\"The idea of verifying facts about the world through controlled repetition seems alien to just about everyone with the _possible_ exception of Fr Inire, and he's a bug-eyed space monster. . .\" \n Gaming to keep War out of RealTime! \n FOR SALE!! ->85 VF500F 'Contraceptor'<-\n **Specify Type Of Goat**" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-12T15:01:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:17 PM 7/11/2002 -0700, you wrote:\n--- James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " It seems to me that Silk's throwing away a\nknife might be a knife\nhe used in a vain attempt to ward off attackers, not\none he used to inflict\nwounds on himself. The Neighbor says Silk's body is\nokay. It seems to me\nthat if he had been trying for suicide, he would\nhave succeeded. But I may\nbe wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just had a horrid thought: all this talk about arm\nwounds, a lack of memory of how they got that way and\nthe carriage of a weapon reminds me of a murder in San\nDiego years ago (I grew up there); is it possible that\nSilk/Horn killed someone with that knife and the\nwounds are the result of his victim fighting back?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well, yes. That's just what I think happened. He was defending his \nhouse and his wife and himself. The horror of having killed someone (or at \nleast wounded him and driven him off) + the death of Hyacinth -- well, \nthat's enough for Silk to despair.\n But I may be wrong.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-07-12T15:51:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But why would fighting to protect himself drive Silk to despair? He killed the\nTalus and although he felt guilty about it, he didn't despair. He smacked Musk\na wrapping good blow with his cane and apparently didn't feel all that bad\nabout it (although he didn't kill Musk). He sliced Blood in two with his azoth\nand didn't fall into despair. In fact, the only time I can remember Silk\nreally losing himself in despair is the scene where he and Horn are on top of\nthe Trivigaunti airship. I've never really been sure of my reading of that\nscene, but it always seemed to me that his despair rose up out seeing the many\nand casual ways in which people deceive and hurt one another. I believe he\ntold Horn that he had been focusing on all the evil that other people do to\neach other instead of focusing on the evil in his own heart, and that this\nmisdirected and misguided focus is what led him to despair.\n\nI know that was \"twenty years ago\" and that perhaps Silk has become more\nhyper-sensitive to violence in the intervening years, but I just can't buy into\nthe notion that his despair springs from his having defended Hyacinth or\nhimself from some attacker. The only way I could see this happening is if it\nwas Hyacinth herself whom Silk had killed, but I don't believe that could have\nhappened either. If I remember correctly (sorry, I don't have my books with\nme) Hyacinth was already in her coffin when Horn's consciousness was\ntransferred into Silk's body, which I take to mean (given the relative\nisolation of their house) that they had known for some time that Hyacinth was\nill, and that they were prepared for it when it came. Perhaps Silk even built\nthe coffin himself (like they did in Faulkner's creepy novel, AS I LAY DYING).\n\nIt seems to me that the most logical explanation for Silk's despair is that\nHyacinth had been dying for some time, and while she was still alive Silk was\nable to busy his mind with her care. But when she was dead, and placed in the\nbox, and Silk found himself utterly alone in the Whorl, his grief and\nloneliness overcame him.\n\nI haven't made up my mind on the question of whether Silk was actually trying\nto commit suicide or was merely whaling away at himself in grief-induced\nmadness (I tend to favor the latter explanation), but I also think that it\ndoesn't really matter. His emotions had overwhelmed him and he didn't know how\nto go on.\n\nJust my two cents.\n\nCharles (who needs a cool moniker to go by)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Jordan wrote:\n......" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just had a horrid thought: all this talk about arm\nwounds, a lack of memory of how they got that way and\nthe carriage of a weapon reminds me of a murder in San\nDiego years ago (I grew up there); is it possible that\nSilk/Horn killed someone with that knife and the\nwounds are the result of his victim fighting back?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Well, yes. That's just what I think happened. He was defending his\nhouse and his wife and himself. The horror of having killed someone (or at\nleast wounded him and driven him off) + the death of Hyacinth -- well,\nthat's enough for Silk to despair.\n But I may be wrong.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-13T14:58:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What people are persistently failing to acknowledge, though Wolfe flags it\nagain and again, is that Hyacinth was a bad woman, and disastrous for Silk.\n\nSilk's near suicide on the airship comes *after* he has obtained Hyacinth,\nafter he has gotten his dearest wish, and realised it is dust and ashes.\nHence the despair.\n\nI believe that Silk's life with Hyacinth was hell. Consider the state of\nthe house he was in - small, mean, \"almost everything broken\".\n\nHe did not, could not, kill himself while she lived, because somehow he\nstill loved her.\n\nBut when she died, at long last, he lay down the burden of life and love, at\nlast free of her, and allowed his spirit to die.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-07-12T17:02:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have to disagree with hartshorn's reading of the airship incident. If you'll\nrecall, Silk was standing very close to the edge and Horn was expressing concern\nthat Silk would jump. At some point in their conversation, Silk tells horn\nabout how Maytera Marble had deceived Hammerstone by claiming to be\nHammerstone's old girlfriend, Molybdenum. Horn then says something like, \"I\ndon't think that's any reason to want to kill yourself,\" to which Silk replies,\n\"I disagree.\"\n\nYou're right that Hyacinth was part of it: the way she attacked the Trivigaunti\npilot, the way she was fooling around with whats-her-name in the cabin below\n(I've GOT to bring my paperbacks to work so I can have them as a reference), but\nshe wasn't the WHOLE reason for his thinking about jumping, and might not even\nhave been the majority of it.\n\nAnd speaking of Hyacinth, my first reading of the Long Sun books left me really\nconfused about the ending. But my second reading has really cleared things up\nfor me. I was never really confused about why Silk chased Hyacinth at the end\nof EXODUS. Rather, I couldn't figure out why Hyacinth ran away in the first\nplace. That whole is really fascinating to me, and I'd like to examine it\nbecause it speaks to what hartshorn said about Hyacinth.\n\nHyacinth had already gone down into the tunnel and was urging Silk to hurry up,\nbut Silk wanted to have a few words in private with Horn before descending. She\nfinally got tired of waiting and came to see what the hold-up was. Silk was\ntelling Horn something (I NEED MY BOOKS!) about lying, I think, and made some\noblique reference to Hyacinth's lying that he fully intended for her to hear. I\nthink he was using her as a \"bad\" example to illustrate his point. And that's\nwhere Hyacinth apparently realized that she didn't want to spend any more time\nwith Silk, even if he could take her to safety. She \"wigged out\" at the thought\nof spending her life with this guy who was capable of insulting her in the most\neducated and civilized tones imaginable. She didn't want to go into danger with\nhim, and she couldn't imagine spending weeks cooped up with him in the lander.\nSo she ran. And Silk, probably realizing what he had done and being aghast\nbecause of it, ran after her.\n\nAll I'm saying is that even though Hyacinth might not have been good to Silk,\nthere are ways in which he wasn't good to her either. Hyacinth wasn't evil, and\nthat it's very possible she was even good for Silk, because there at the end of\nEXODUS, she wouldn't allow herself to be used an example. That is, she was\nforcing him to realize that he was doing it again -- focusing on other people's\nfailings instead of his own. If she was able to do that for length of their\nmarriage, then I can see how Silk would have been helped immeasurably by that.\n\nI guess I prefer to be optimistic about their relationship in the Whorl since\nthere's no real reason to be pessimistic. There are other explanations of the\nbroken furniture than that Hyacinth was a horrible house-keeper, or that she\nthrew things around when she got mad and broke everything in sight. If my\nreading of Silk after Hyacinth's death is correct, then I think it more than\nlikely that Silk is the one who broke all the furniture after her passing.\n\nCharles" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andy Robertson wrote:\nWhat people are persistently failing to acknowledge, though Wolfe flags it\nagain and again, is that Hyacinth was a bad woman, and disastrous for Silk.\n\nSilk's near suicide on the airship comes *after* he has obtained Hyacinth,\nafter he has gotten his dearest wish, and realised it is dust and ashes.\nHence the despair.\n\nI believe that Silk's life with Hyacinth was hell. Consider the state of\nthe house he was in - small, mean, \"almost everything broken\".\n\nHe did not, could not, kill himself while she lived, because somehow he\nstill loved her.\n\nBut when she died, at long last, he lay down the burden of life and love, at\nlast free of her, and allowed his spirit to die.\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "tom", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2002-07-12T20:06:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andy Robertson writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Charles Reed write:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I have to disagree with hartshorn's reading of the airship incident." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I got the essence of the Silk/Hyacinth relationship right. It was\nthe ultimate mutually destructive love, and that was its point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe Silk killed her in a fight? It would explain the broken furniture,\nand the cuts on his arms could be scratches. I think if we understood\nwhat Wolfe was trying to get at with this relationship we'd understand\nmore about its end." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-12T23:04:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 03:58 PM 7/13/2002 +0100, you wrote:\nWhat people are persistently failing to acknowledge, though Wolfe flags it\nagain and again, is that Hyacinth was a bad woman, and disastrous for Silk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " While it would be a serious mistake to read these narratives only \nas theological allegories, I don't think that aspect can be separated from \nthem as some \"extra layer\" either. Silk is a Christ figure, and Hyacinth a \nChurch figure, a Magdelene. \"Bad woman,\" yes, but in a way kind of like \nSeverian. \"Disastrous for Silk\" I think goes too far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk's near suicide on the airship comes *after* he has obtained Hyacinth,\nafter he has gotten his dearest wish, and realised it is dust and ashes.\nHence the despair." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Once again, remember the temptations of Christ: \"cast yourself \ndown from the pinnacle of the Temple and let the angels bear you up.\" Silk \nhas just been tempted to become one with Pas. It appears that either he \nagreed to this, or that they did it without his knowledge. Now he's also \nmeditating on Hyacinth's wayward ways. He doubts his calling, the worth of \nhis life. Should he cast himself down and test the Outsider?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe that Silk's life with Hyacinth was hell. Consider the state of\nthe house he was in - small, mean, \"almost everything broken\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I took this to mean that society had rejected Silk, and that they \nlived in abject poverty. Pretty much the way the world treats its Savior. \nRecall how the Church is described in \"Westwind\" as a filthy run-down inn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He did not, could not, kill himself while she lived, because somehow he\nstill loved her.\n\nBut when she died, at long last, he lay down the burden of life and love, at\nlast free of her, and allowed his spirit to die." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I can't buy this Total Hyacinth Explanation. Politics and \necclesiastical allegory are very near the surface in most of Wolfe's works. \nAlso, despite everything, it is clear in the Long Sun books that Hyacinth \nreally loved Silk. And in the Short Sun books, she did NOT abandon him when \neveryone else did.\n I don't have an answer. Maybe indeed Hyacinth has just died of \nsyphilis and Silk goes berserk and slashes himself. But it still seems to \nme that an attack on Silk's house is the easiest explanation. Wolfe makes a \nlot out of this event, so the answer is there, even if nobody has found the \nkey to unlock it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But then Charles Reed wrote:\nIt seems to me that the most logical explanation for Silk's despair is that\nHyacinth had been dying for some time, and while she was still alive Silk was\nable to busy his mind with her care. But when she was dead, and placed in the\nbox, and Silk found himself utterly alone in the Whorl, his grief and\nloneliness overcame him.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " You make good points against me that Silk did not mind killing \nenemies. Thus, I revise my view, and would say that Silk's despair is at \nthe death of Hyacinth, however it came about. But I don't think this \nskilled auger tried to kill himself and failed. Either the wounds are the \nresult of a fit, or came from outsiders; and I think the latter is more \nthan hinted at in the chaos we see in the Whorl at this time.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Dale", "address": "jdale at fla.fujitsu.com" }, "date": "2002-07-13T17:33:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect that Silk was very distraught over the death of Hyacinth\ncaused by the disease that it mentions. I also think (and the text seems\nto support) that he smashed up the place and then cut himself in his\ngrief (whether ritual or atonement or just craziness); perhaps the\nneighbours heard all of these strange noises and breaks coming from the\nnearby house and figured him to be crazy or dangerous. I also think that\nSilk wanted to die, but would not or could not do it himself, which\nexplains the Neighbours reference to transferring Horn into a healthy\nbody (relatively, or at least not dying) whose soul was dying. The story\nfrom this point is basically documentation of the gradual loss of\nHorn-in-Silk and the reaffirmation of the Silk character and persona.\nHowever, it is not clear to me where the Horn persona goes to (if it\nindeed goes anywhere; he may just cease to exist).\n\n\nJonathan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----Original Message-----\nFrom: James Jordan [mailto:jbjordan4 at cox.net] \nSent: Friday, 12 July, 2002 8:01 AM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair\n\n\nAt 05:17 PM 7/11/2002 -0700, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "--- James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " It seems to me that Silk's throwing away a\nknife might be a knife\nhe used in a vain attempt to ward off attackers, not\none he used to inflict\nwounds on himself. The Neighbor says Silk's body is\nokay. It seems to me\nthat if he had been trying for suicide, he would\nhave succeeded. But I may\nbe wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just had a horrid thought: all this talk about arm\nwounds, a lack of memory of how they got that way and\nthe carriage of a weapon reminds me of a murder in San\nDiego years ago (I grew up there); is it possible that \nSilk/Horn killed \nsomeone with that knife and the wounds are the result of his victim \nfighting back?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Well, yes. That's just what I think happened. He was \ndefending his \nhouse and his wife and himself. The horror of having killed \nsomeone (or at \nleast wounded him and driven him off) + the death of Hyacinth \n-- well, \nthat's enough for Silk to despair.\n But I may be wrong.\n\nNutria\n\n\n-- \nhttp://www.urth.net/ To unsubscribe: send > \"unsubscribe\" to \nurth-request at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:40:34+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, James Jordan wrote:\n While it would be a serious mistake to read these narratives only \nas theological allegories, I don't think that aspect can be separated from \nthem as some \"extra layer\" either. Silk is a Christ figure, and Hyacinth a \nChurch figure, a Magdelene. \"Bad woman,\" yes, but in a way kind of like \nSeverian. \"Disastrous for Silk\" I think goes too far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the church was pretty disasterous for Christ, in the sense that he\ngot crucified for it.\n\nDoesn't Paul essentially say in Ephesians that the marriage in which the\nhusband is most Christ-like is the one most like a crucifixion?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }