Subject: (urth) Suicide & Despair

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Thu, 11 Jul 2002 14:03:19 +0000

At 11:55 PM 7/10/2002 -0500, you wrote:
>If Silk wasn't trying to commit suicide over Hyacinth's casket, then what 
>is the significance of Silk/Horn and Remora's conversation about death and 
>suicide at the end of the series?  I thought the reason that kept Silk 
>retreated into the Horn persona through most of the books was that he 
>couldn't face the fact of himself committing suicide.  When he finally 
>did, he emerged.  Didn't the Neighbors say something when Horn was dying 
>about "transfering him into a healthy body who's soul was dying" or words 
>to that effect?  I took this to mean that Silk's body was relatively 
>healthy-- he hadn't gone far enough to truly be in danger of death-- but 
>that his soul was dying, i.e. he had decided to end it all, made the 
>decision to quit living, given up.  If Wolfe is a Christian, than this is 
>one of the greatest moral crimes a man can commit.  If Silk is a servant 
>of the Outsider, the same is true, and the fact that he committed it, fell 
>so far, is why he stayed hidden in Horn for so long.  I think the suicide 
>theory explains things rather nicely.  What holes do you guys see?
>
>-Steve

         For me, this same evidence points not to active suicide but to the 
sin of despair, of losing faith in God. These are strongly linked, of 
course. Despair is one of the greatest of sins. I think all the evidence 
that has been evinced to show Silk attempting suicide works better with the 
sin of despair. Silk's wounds I have always taken as the result of some 
kind of attack that left Hyacinth dead and Silk in despair. It seems pretty 
clear from the evidence in RTTW that Silk's ministry/mission has been over 
for some time, and that's depressing enough -- loss of calling after a 
season of heroic acts is very depressing. Now Hyacinth is dead. Depression 
and despair, yes. But suicide? I think not.
         Anyway, despair is a kind of soul-suicide, so if you are saying, 
"Silk has sunk into despair and black depression, and is contemplating 
suicide," you may be right. But I don't think the wounds in his arms are 
self-inflicted.
         Viewing the subsequent narrative as a process by which Silk 
recovers his faith, and thus his self, might be worthwhile investigating. 
What are the steps through which the Outsider takes him?

Nutria

--

---

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:10:48 +0000

he used in a vain attempt to ward off attackers, not one he used to inflict 
wounds on himself. The Neighbor says Silk's body is okay. It seems to me 
that if he had been trying for suicide, he would have succeeded. But I may 
be wrong.

Nutria

--

---

From: Inire <inire at yahoo.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 00:17:06 +0000

--- James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net> wrote:
>          It seems to me that Silk's throwing away a
> knife might be a knife 
I just had a horrid thought: all this talk about arm
wounds, a lack of memory of how they got that way and
the carriage of a weapon reminds me of a murder in San
Diego years ago (I grew up there); is it possible that
Silk/Horn killed someone with that knife and the
wounds are the result of his victim fighting back?

could that explain the brevity and hostility he
experienced in the next encounter (where he gathered
the corn)? Had they heard something?

Out on a limb, i realize...

=====
Jeff "My dice hate me!" Miller      

"The idea of verifying facts about the world through controlled repetition seems alien to just about everyone with the _possible_ exception of Fr Inire, and he's a bug-eyed space monster. . ."        
      Gaming to keep War out of RealTime!                     
     FOR SALE!! ->85 VF500F 'Contraceptor'<-
           **Specify Type Of Goat**

__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Sign up for SBC Yahoo! Dial - First Month Free
http://sbc.yahoo.com

--

---

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:01:00 +0000

>wounds are the result of his victim fighting back?

         Well, yes. That's just what I think happened. He was defending his 
house and his wife and himself. The horror of having killed someone (or at 
least wounded him and driven him off) + the death of Hyacinth -- well, 
that's enough for Silk to despair.
         But I may be wrong.

Nutria

--

---

From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 15:51:04 +0000

But why would fighting to protect himself drive Silk to despair?  He killed the
Talus and although he felt guilty about it, he didn't despair.  He smacked Musk
a wrapping good blow with his cane and apparently didn't feel all that bad
about it (although he didn't kill Musk).  He sliced Blood in two with his azoth
and didn't fall into despair.  In fact, the only time I can remember Silk
really losing himself in despair is the scene where he and Horn are on top of
the Trivigaunti airship.  I've never really been sure of my reading of that
scene, but it always seemed to me that his despair rose up out seeing the many
and casual ways in which people deceive and hurt one another.  I believe he
told Horn that he had been focusing on all the evil that other people do to
each other instead of focusing on the evil in his own heart, and that this
misdirected and misguided focus is what led him to despair.

I know that was "twenty years ago" and that perhaps Silk has become more
hyper-sensitive to violence in the intervening years, but I just can't buy into
the notion that his despair springs from his having defended Hyacinth or
himself from some attacker.  The only way I could see this happening is if it
was Hyacinth herself whom Silk had killed, but I don't believe that could have
happened either.  If I remember correctly (sorry, I don't have my books with
me) Hyacinth was already in her coffin when Horn's consciousness was
transferred into Silk's body, which I take to mean (given the relative
isolation of their house) that they had known for some time that Hyacinth was
ill, and that they were prepared for it when it came.  Perhaps Silk even built
the coffin himself (like they did in Faulkner's creepy novel, AS I LAY DYING).

It seems to me that the most logical explanation for Silk's despair is that
Hyacinth had been dying for some time, and while she was still alive Silk was
able to busy his mind with her care.  But when she was dead, and placed in the
box, and Silk found himself utterly alone in the Whorl, his grief and
loneliness overcame him.

I haven't made up my mind on the question of whether Silk was actually trying
to commit suicide or was merely whaling away at himself in grief-induced
madness (I tend to favor the latter explanation), but I also think that it
doesn't really matter.  His emotions had overwhelmed him and he didn't know how
to go on.

Just my two cents.

Charles (who needs a cool moniker to go by)

James Jordan wrote:

> ...<snip>...

--

---

From: Andy Robertson <andywrobertson at clara.co.uk>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 14:58:11 +0000

What people are persistently failing to acknowledge, though Wolfe flags it
again and again,  is that Hyacinth was a bad woman, and disastrous for Silk.

Silk's near suicide on the airship comes *after* he has obtained Hyacinth,
after he has gotten his dearest wish, and realised it is dust and ashes.
Hence the despair.

I believe that Silk's life with Hyacinth was hell.   Consider the state of
the house he was in - small, mean, "almost everything broken".

He did not, could not, kill himself while she lived, because somehow he
still loved her.

But when she died, at long last, he lay down the burden of life and love, at
last free of her, and allowed his spirit to die.

    hartshorn

--

---

From: Charles Reed <cmreed at link.com>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 17:02:02 +0000

I have to disagree with hartshorn's reading of the airship incident.  If you'll
recall, Silk was standing very close to the edge and Horn was expressing concern
that Silk would jump.  At some point in their conversation, Silk tells horn
about how Maytera Marble had deceived Hammerstone by claiming to be
Hammerstone's old girlfriend, Molybdenum.  Horn then says something like, "I
don't think that's any reason to want to kill yourself," to which Silk replies,
"I disagree."

You're right that Hyacinth was part of it:  the way she attacked the Trivigaunti
pilot, the way she was fooling around with whats-her-name in the cabin below
(I've GOT to bring my paperbacks to work so I can have them as a reference), but
she wasn't the WHOLE reason for his thinking about jumping, and might not even
have been the majority of it.

And speaking of Hyacinth, my first reading of the Long Sun books left me really
confused about the ending.  But my second reading has really cleared things up
for me.  I was never really confused about why Silk chased Hyacinth at the end
of EXODUS.  Rather, I couldn't figure out why Hyacinth ran away in the first
place.  That whole is really fascinating to me, and I'd like to examine it
because it speaks to what hartshorn said about Hyacinth.

Hyacinth had already gone down into the tunnel and was urging Silk to hurry up,
but Silk wanted to have a few words in private with Horn before descending.  She
finally got tired of waiting and came to see what the hold-up was.  Silk was
telling Horn something (I NEED MY BOOKS!) about lying, I think, and made some
oblique reference to Hyacinth's lying that he fully intended for her to hear.  I
think he was using her as a "bad" example to illustrate his point.  And that's
where Hyacinth apparently realized that she didn't want to spend any more time
with Silk, even if he could take her to safety.  She "wigged out" at the thought
of spending her life with this guy who was capable of insulting her in the most
educated and civilized tones imaginable.  She didn't want to go into danger with
him, and she couldn't imagine spending weeks cooped up with him in the lander.
So she ran.  And Silk, probably realizing what he had done and being aghast
because of it, ran after her.

All I'm saying is that even though Hyacinth might not have been good to Silk,
there are ways in which he wasn't good to her either.  Hyacinth wasn't evil, and
that it's very possible she was even good for Silk, because there at the end of
EXODUS, she wouldn't allow herself to be used an example.  That is, she was
forcing him to realize that he was doing it again -- focusing on other people's
failings instead of his own.  If she was able to do that for length of their
marriage, then I can see how Silk would have been helped immeasurably by that.

I guess I prefer to be optimistic about their relationship in the Whorl since
there's no real reason to be pessimistic.  There are other explanations of the
broken furniture than that Hyacinth was a horrible house-keeper, or that she
threw things around when she got mad and broke everything in sight.  If my
reading of Silk after Hyacinth's death is correct, then I think it more than
likely that Silk is the one who broke all the furniture after her passing.

Charles

--

---

From: tom <tom at bitterman.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 20:06:06 +0000

Andy Robertson writes:
 
> Charles Reed write:
> > I have to disagree with hartshorn's reading of the airship incident.
> 
> I think I got the essence of the Silk/Hyacinth relationship right.  It was
> the ultimate mutually destructive love, and that was its point.

Maybe Silk killed her in a fight?  It would explain the broken furniture,
and the cuts on his arms could be scratches.  I think if we understood
what Wolfe was trying to get at with this relationship we'd understand
more about its end.

--

---

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Fri, 12 Jul 2002 23:04:30 +0000

>again and again,  is that Hyacinth was a bad woman, and disastrous for Silk.

         While it would be a serious mistake to read these narratives only 
as theological allegories, I don't think that aspect can be separated from 
them as some "extra layer" either. Silk is a Christ figure, and Hyacinth a 
Church figure, a Magdelene. "Bad woman," yes, but in a way kind of like 
Severian. "Disastrous for Silk" I think goes too far.

>after he has gotten his dearest wish, and realised it is dust and ashes.

         Once again, remember the temptations of Christ: "cast yourself 
down from the pinnacle of the Temple and let the angels bear you up." Silk 
has just been tempted to become one with Pas. It appears that either he 
agreed to this, or that they did it without his knowledge. Now he's also 
meditating on Hyacinth's wayward ways. He doubts his calling, the worth of 
his life. Should he cast himself down and test the Outsider?

>the house he was in - small, mean, "almost everything broken".

         I took this to mean that society had rejected Silk, and that they 
lived in abject poverty. Pretty much the way the world treats its Savior. 
Recall how the Church is described in "Westwind" as a filthy run-down inn.

>last free of her, and allowed his spirit to die.

         I can't buy this Total Hyacinth Explanation. Politics and 
ecclesiastical allegory are very near the surface in most of Wolfe's works. 
Also, despite everything, it is clear in the Long Sun books that Hyacinth 
really loved Silk. And in the Short Sun books, she did NOT abandon him when 
everyone else did.
         I don't have an answer. Maybe indeed Hyacinth has just died of 
syphilis and Silk goes berserk and slashes himself. But it still seems to 
me that an attack on Silk's house is the easiest explanation. Wolfe makes a 
lot out of this event, so the answer is there, even if nobody has found the 
key to unlock it.

Hyacinth had been dying for some time, and while she was still alive Silk was
able to busy his mind with her care. But when she was dead, and placed in the
box, and Silk found himself utterly alone in the Whorl, his grief and
loneliness overcame him.<

         You make good points against me that Silk did not mind killing 
enemies. Thus, I revise my view, and would say that Silk's despair is at 
the death of Hyacinth, however it came about. But I don't think this 
skilled auger tried to kill himself and failed. Either the wounds are the 
result of a fit, or came from outsiders; and I think the latter is more 
than hinted at in the chaos we see in the Whorl at this time.

Nutria

--

---

From: Jonathan Dale <jdale at fla.fujitsu.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 17:33:12 +0000

I suspect that Silk was very distraught over the death of Hyacinth
caused by the disease that it mentions. I also think (and the text seems
to support) that he smashed up the place and then cut himself in his
grief (whether ritual or atonement or just craziness); perhaps the
neighbours heard all of these strange noises and breaks coming from the
nearby house and figured him to be crazy or dangerous. I also think that
Silk wanted to die, but would not or could not do it himself, which
explains the Neighbours reference to transferring Horn into a healthy
body (relatively, or at least not dying) whose soul was dying. The story
from this point is basically documentation of the gradual loss of
Horn-in-Silk and the reaffirmation of the Silk character and persona.
However, it is not clear to me where the Horn persona goes to (if it
indeed goes anywhere; he may just cease to exist).

Jonathan
> -----Original Message-----
> From: James Jordan [mailto:jbjordan4 at cox.net] 
> Sent: Friday, 12 July, 2002 8:01 AM
> To: urth at urth.net
> Subject: Re: (urth) Suicide & Despair
> 
> 
> Silk/Horn killed 
> >someone with that knife and the wounds are the result of his victim 
> >fighting back?
> 
> http://www.urth.net/ To unsubscribe: send > "unsubscribe" to 
> urth-request at urth.net
> 

--

---

From: Michael Straight <straight at email.unc.edu>
Date: Mon, 15 Jul 2002 18:40:34 +0000

> Severian. "Disastrous for Silk" I think goes too far.

Well, the church was pretty disasterous for Christ, in the sense that he
got crucified for it.

Doesn't Paul essentially say in Ephesians that the marriage in which the
husband is most Christ-like is the one most like a crucifixion?

-Rostrum

--