{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3345", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3345, "subject": "Consensus? and Question", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-07-13T01:14:03+00:00", "last": "2002-07-16T16:56:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-13T01:24:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Back in the olden days we fought over who was who. I and others \nthought Silk was dead (soul departed) and Horn was living in his body, \nbeing influenced by his \"kinetic memory\" (brain, habits, \"body and blood\") \nto be a more Silk-like person -- as Christians (especially Roman Catholics \nlike Wolfe) would say that feeding on Christ's body and blood is to make us \nmore Christlike.\n But most disagreed, and it does seem Silk was merely dormant, and \nthen gradually ascended to take his body back. Yet, what of Horn? It made \nno sense to me that Horn was dead and gone at the end, though some thought \nso. Some of us decided Horn was alive in Silk, but now in the background.\n Now there seems to be a consensus that Horn moved from Silk to \nBabbie as Silk woke up. I can live with that. If Scylla can ride Oreb, Horn \ncan ride Babbie. Are we all now in general consensus about that picture?\n Indeed, since Babbie is \"intelligent,\" is his race destined to \nrise in the future? And if so, then Horn-in-Babbie can have something to do \nwith that future. Possibly the Neighbors give Blue to humanity so that \nhumanity can guide the Babbie race into maturity, and getting a more \nSilk-like Horn into Babbie is part of their plan along these lines.\n A question I have, especially for our re-readers is this: What \nabout the soul? I would postulate that the soul is indivisible, so that \nSilk-in-Mainframe is a whole Silk, as is Silk-in-Pig and Silk-in-Silk. \nUr-Silk does not seem to \"lose\" any abilities as a result of being copied \ninto Mainframe. His soul does not seem to be divided, only cloned.\n But, and this is where I have the question, it seemed to me that \nMainframe gods when downloaded into human beings were still connected to \ntheir mainframe original, which governed them. They did not \"go off on \ntheir own\" so to speak. But the various Silks do not seem to be connected. \nExcept that possibly Mainframe Silk would be connected to Silk-in-Pig, if \nother mainframe gods are connected to their avatars. Scylla seems to govern \nOreb from afar. Or am I wrong? Do mainframe originals know what their \navatars are doing? Does Scylla know what Scylla-in-Oreb is doing?\n The reason I raise this is that the developing consensus seems to \nbe that Horn passes into/onto Babbie by stages as Silk awakens. But I would \nnot think that only \"part\" of Horn goes into Babbie at the beginning, and \n\"more\" later on. Rather, the sequence seems to be:\n 1. Horn\n 2. Horn in Silk\n 3. Two Horns, one in Silk and one in Babbie\n 4. One Horn in Babbie\nIs this the developing consensus?\n Also, is the consensus that part of Ur-Silk's reawakening is \ncaused by a dump from Mainframe Silk via Silk-in-Pig? Does Mainframe Silk \nleave Pig and go into Ur-Silk? If so, this provides an analogy for \nHorn-in-Silk to leave Silk completely for Babbie at the end.\n This whole business of soul-cloning and soul-riding is central to \nall seven novels. It seems to structure the narrative.\n Anyway, I wondered if there is a consensus, and if I'm on the \nright track.\n\nPatera Nutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-07-13T01:14:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 8:24 PM -0500 7/12/02, James Jordan wrote:\n Anyway, I wondered if there is a consensus, and if I'm on \nthe right track." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I, for one, don't agree with the \"Horn in Babbie\" theory. And my \nsense is that there is no real consensus on most of the issues in the \nShort Sun books. Just look at the range of opinions just expressed \nabout whether or not Silk committed suicide." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-13T01:54:50+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. Just wondering. Didn't want to be . . . LEFT BEHIND!\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:14 PM 7/12/2002 -0400, you wrote:\nAt 8:24 PM -0500 7/12/02, James Jordan wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Anyway, I wondered if there is a consensus, and if I'm on the \nright track." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I, for one, don't agree with the \"Horn in Babbie\" theory. And my sense is \nthat there is no real consensus on most of the issues in the Short Sun \nbooks. Just look at the range of opinions just expressed about whether or \nnot Silk committed suicide.\n--\n\nWilliam Ansley\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:23:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, James Jordan wrote:\n But, and this is where I have the question, it seemed to me that \nMainframe gods when downloaded into human beings were still connected to \ntheir mainframe original, which governed them. They did not \"go off on \ntheir own\" so to speak. But the various Silks do not seem to be connected. \nExcept that possibly Mainframe Silk would be connected to Silk-in-Pig, if \nother mainframe gods are connected to their avatars. Scylla seems to govern \nOreb from afar. Or am I wrong? Do mainframe originals know what their \navatars are doing? Does Scylla know what Scylla-in-Oreb is doing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Pig gives us the most insight into how this works. Downloaded\npersonalities can only stay in contact with their Mainframe versions if\ntheir eyes can make contact with a terminal. \n\nFrom the way Kypris says she's been watching Silk, it seems there may be a\nlot of camouflaged termiminals about that the citizens of Viron are\nunaware of, in addition to the sacred windows. So when Chennille was\nposessed by Kypris or Scylla, she may have been regularly making contact\nto stay in sync with her Mainframe version.\n\nBut Scylla-in-Oreb and Silk-in-Pig are obviously stranded, and seem to be\ncompletely isolated from their Mainframe versions. Presumably, the longer\na posessing entity goes without synching up, the more it would diverge\nfrom Mainframe.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jonathan Dale", "address": "jdale at fla.fujitsu.com" }, "date": "2002-07-16T10:44:44+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this works - I suggest that there are only specific\nterminals that can be used for up/downloads (bandwith or connectivity\nproblems?), so when Kypris says that she has been watching Silk, it is\nprobably from cameras with no up/download capability.\n\nI also don't buy into the Silk-Pig download through eye contact.\n\n\nJonathan\n---" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Pig gives us the most insight into how this works. \nDownloaded personalities can only stay in contact with their \nMainframe versions if their eyes can make contact with a terminal. \n\nFrom the way Kypris says she's been watching Silk, it seems \nthere may be a lot of camouflaged termiminals about that the \ncitizens of Viron are unaware of, in addition to the sacred \nwindows. So when Chennille was posessed by Kypris or Scylla, \nshe may have been regularly making contact to stay in sync \nwith her Mainframe version.\n\nBut Scylla-in-Oreb and Silk-in-Pig are obviously stranded, \nand seem to be completely isolated from their Mainframe \nversions. Presumably, the longer a posessing entity goes \nwithout synching up, the more it would diverge from Mainframe.\n\n-Rostrum\n\n\n-- \nhttp://www.urth.net/ To unsubscribe: send > \"unsubscribe\" to \nurth-request at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-16T15:18:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Jonathan Dale wrote:\nI don't think this works - I suggest that there are only specific\nterminals that can be used for up/downloads (bandwith or connectivity\nproblems?), so when Kypris says that she has been watching Silk, it is\nprobably from cameras with no up/download capability." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, the whole bandwidth issue is waved away with a magic wand anyway,\nbut you might only need a terminal for full up/download of a personality,\nwhereas the (hypothesized) ubiquitous cameras might have enough bandwidth\nfor synching up (like downloading a patch rather than the whole program).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-07-16T16:31:30+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 7/16/02 5:44 AM, Jonathan Dale at jdale at fla.fujitsu.com wrote:\nI also don't buy into the Silk-Pig download through eye contact." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean upload? Iirc, it was pretty explicitly stated that Pig is\npossessed by Silk, and the only way the \"gods\" can possess humans is through\neye contact. I don't think there's any explicit indication that Silk-in-Pig\nis uploaded back into Mainframe after Pig gets Horn's eye, but it's at least\na plausible motive for Silkhorn's determination to restore Pig's sight.\n\n(Although now that I think about it, while the downloading of AIs into\nliving brains through the eye is \"plausible\" in a skiffy sort of way, it's\ngosh-darn hard to see how it could go the other way. Eyes don't broadcast,\nafter all; and I don't see how a computer, just by looking into someone's\neye, could learn enough about the brain's neural connections to upload a\npersonality fragment with its attached memories.)\n\nOtoh, I've never bought the idea that Silk's personality was erased from his\nbrain when Horn entered, or that Horn was repossessed by Silk through the\nmonitor at the pole.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-16T16:56:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Consensus? and Question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The eye is the window of the soul. - Leonardo da Vinci\n\nNutria" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:31 AM 7/16/2002 -0500, you wrote:\non 7/16/02 5:44 AM, Jonathan Dale at jdale at fla.fujitsu.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I also don't buy into the Silk-Pig download through eye contact." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you mean upload? Iirc, it was pretty explicitly stated that Pig is\npossessed by Silk, and the only way the \"gods\" can possess humans is through\neye contact. I don't think there's any explicit indication that Silk-in-Pig\nis uploaded back into Mainframe after Pig gets Horn's eye, but it's at least\na plausible motive for Silkhorn's determination to restore Pig's sight.\n\n(Although now that I think about it, while the downloading of AIs into\nliving brains through the eye is \"plausible\" in a skiffy sort of way, it's\ngosh-darn hard to see how it could go the other way. Eyes don't broadcast,\nafter all; and I don't see how a computer, just by looking into someone's\neye, could learn enough about the brain's neural connections to upload a\npersonality fragment with its attached memories.)\n\nOtoh, I've never bought the idea that Silk's personality was erased from his\nbrain when Horn entered, or that Horn was repossessed by Silk through the\nmonitor at the pole.\n\n--Adam\n\n\n--" } ] } ] }