# Consensus? and Question *The Urth list — 8 messages, 5 voices, 13 Jul 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### James Jordan *13 Jul 2002, 01:24* Back in the olden days we fought over who was who. I and others thought Silk was dead (soul departed) and Horn was living in his body, being influenced by his "kinetic memory" (brain, habits, "body and blood") to be a more Silk-like person -- as Christians (especially Roman Catholics like Wolfe) would say that feeding on Christ's body and blood is to make us more Christlike. But most disagreed, and it does seem Silk was merely dormant, and then gradually ascended to take his body back. Yet, what of Horn? It made no sense to me that Horn was dead and gone at the end, though some thought so. Some of us decided Horn was alive in Silk, but now in the background. Now there seems to be a consensus that Horn moved from Silk to Babbie as Silk woke up. I can live with that. If Scylla can ride Oreb, Horn can ride Babbie. Are we all now in general consensus about that picture? Indeed, since Babbie is "intelligent," is his race destined to rise in the future? And if so, then Horn-in-Babbie can have something to do with that future. Possibly the Neighbors give Blue to humanity so that humanity can guide the Babbie race into maturity, and getting a more Silk-like Horn into Babbie is part of their plan along these lines. A question I have, especially for our re-readers is this: What about the soul? I would postulate that the soul is indivisible, so that Silk-in-Mainframe is a whole Silk, as is Silk-in-Pig and Silk-in-Silk. Ur-Silk does not seem to "lose" any abilities as a result of being copied into Mainframe. His soul does not seem to be divided, only cloned. But, and this is where I have the question, it seemed to me that Mainframe gods when downloaded into human beings were still connected to their mainframe original, which governed them. They did not "go off on their own" so to speak. But the various Silks do not seem to be connected. Except that possibly Mainframe Silk would be connected to Silk-in-Pig, if other mainframe gods are connected to their avatars. Scylla seems to govern Oreb from afar. Or am I wrong? Do mainframe originals know what their avatars are doing? Does Scylla know what Scylla-in-Oreb is doing? The reason I raise this is that the developing consensus seems to be that Horn passes into/onto Babbie by stages as Silk awakens. But I would not think that only "part" of Horn goes into Babbie at the beginning, and "more" later on. Rather, the sequence seems to be: 1. Horn 2. Horn in Silk 3. Two Horns, one in Silk and one in Babbie 4. One Horn in Babbie Is this the developing consensus? Also, is the consensus that part of Ur-Silk's reawakening is caused by a dump from Mainframe Silk via Silk-in-Pig? Does Mainframe Silk leave Pig and go into Ur-Silk? If so, this provides an analogy for Horn-in-Silk to leave Silk completely for Babbie at the end. This whole business of soul-cloning and soul-riding is central to all seven novels. It seems to structure the narrative. Anyway, I wondered if there is a consensus, and if I'm on the right track. Patera Nutria --- ### William Ansley *13 Jul 2002, 01:14 · follows James Jordan* > At 8:24 PM -0500 7/12/02, James Jordan wrote: > Anyway, I wondered if there is a consensus, and if I'm on > the right track. I, for one, don't agree with the "Horn in Babbie" theory. And my sense is that there is no real consensus on most of the issues in the Short Sun books. Just look at the range of opinions just expressed about whether or not Silk committed suicide. ``` William Ansley -- ``` --- ### James Jordan *13 Jul 2002, 01:54 · follows William Ansley* Okay. Just wondering. Didn't want to be . . . LEFT BEHIND! Nutria > At 09:14 PM 7/12/2002 -0400, you wrote: > At 8:24 PM -0500 7/12/02, James Jordan wrote: >> Anyway, I wondered if there is a consensus, and if I'm on the >> right track. > I, for one, don't agree with the "Horn in Babbie" theory. And my sense is > that there is no real consensus on most of the issues in the Short Sun > books. Just look at the range of opinions just expressed about whether or > not Silk committed suicide. > -- > > William Ansley > > -- --- ### Michael Straight *15 Jul 2002, 18:23 · follows James Jordan* > On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, James Jordan wrote: > But, and this is where I have the question, it seemed to me that > Mainframe gods when downloaded into human beings were still connected to > their mainframe original, which governed them. They did not "go off on > their own" so to speak. But the various Silks do not seem to be connected. > Except that possibly Mainframe Silk would be connected to Silk-in-Pig, if > other mainframe gods are connected to their avatars. Scylla seems to govern > Oreb from afar. Or am I wrong? Do mainframe originals know what their > avatars are doing? Does Scylla know what Scylla-in-Oreb is doing? I think Pig gives us the most insight into how this works. Downloaded personalities can only stay in contact with their Mainframe versions if their eyes can make contact with a terminal. From the way Kypris says she's been watching Silk, it seems there may be a lot of camouflaged termiminals about that the citizens of Viron are unaware of, in addition to the sacred windows. So when Chennille was posessed by Kypris or Scylla, she may have been regularly making contact to stay in sync with her Mainframe version. But Scylla-in-Oreb and Silk-in-Pig are obviously stranded, and seem to be completely isolated from their Mainframe versions. Presumably, the longer a posessing entity goes without synching up, the more it would diverge from Mainframe. -Rostrum --- ### Jonathan Dale *16 Jul 2002, 10:44 · follows Michael Straight* I don't think this works - I suggest that there are only specific terminals that can be used for up/downloads (bandwith or connectivity problems?), so when Kypris says that she has been watching Silk, it is probably from cameras with no up/download capability. I also don't buy into the Silk-Pig download through eye contact. Jonathan --- > I think Pig gives us the most insight into how this works. > Downloaded personalities can only stay in contact with their > Mainframe versions if their eyes can make contact with a terminal. > > From the way Kypris says she's been watching Silk, it seems > there may be a lot of camouflaged termiminals about that the > citizens of Viron are unaware of, in addition to the sacred > windows. So when Chennille was posessed by Kypris or Scylla, > she may have been regularly making contact to stay in sync > with her Mainframe version. > > But Scylla-in-Oreb and Silk-in-Pig are obviously stranded, > and seem to be completely isolated from their Mainframe > versions. Presumably, the longer a posessing entity goes > without synching up, the more it would diverge from Mainframe. > > -Rostrum > > > -- > http://www.urth.net/ To unsubscribe: send > "unsubscribe" to > urth-request at urth.net --- ### Michael Straight *16 Jul 2002, 15:18 · follows Jonathan Dale* > On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Jonathan Dale wrote: > I don't think this works - I suggest that there are only specific > terminals that can be used for up/downloads (bandwith or connectivity > problems?), so when Kypris says that she has been watching Silk, it is > probably from cameras with no up/download capability. Well, the whole bandwidth issue is waved away with a magic wand anyway, but you might only need a terminal for full up/download of a personality, whereas the (hypothesized) ubiquitous cameras might have enough bandwidth for synching up (like downloading a patch rather than the whole program). -Rostrum --- ### Adam Stephanides *16 Jul 2002, 16:31 · follows Michael Straight* > on 7/16/02 5:44 AM, Jonathan Dale at jdale at fla.fujitsu.com wrote: > I also don't buy into the Silk-Pig download through eye contact. Do you mean upload? Iirc, it was pretty explicitly stated that Pig is possessed by Silk, and the only way the "gods" can possess humans is through eye contact. I don't think there's any explicit indication that Silk-in-Pig is uploaded back into Mainframe after Pig gets Horn's eye, but it's at least a plausible motive for Silkhorn's determination to restore Pig's sight. (Although now that I think about it, while the downloading of AIs into living brains through the eye is "plausible" in a skiffy sort of way, it's gosh-darn hard to see how it could go the other way. Eyes don't broadcast, after all; and I don't see how a computer, just by looking into someone's eye, could learn enough about the brain's neural connections to upload a personality fragment with its attached memories.) Otoh, I've never bought the idea that Silk's personality was erased from his brain when Horn entered, or that Horn was repossessed by Silk through the monitor at the pole. --Adam --- ### James Jordan *16 Jul 2002, 16:56 · follows Adam Stephanides* The eye is the window of the soul. - Leonardo da Vinci Nutria > At 11:31 AM 7/16/2002 -0500, you wrote: > on 7/16/02 5:44 AM, Jonathan Dale at jdale at fla.fujitsu.com wrote: >> I also don't buy into the Silk-Pig download through eye contact. > Do you mean upload? Iirc, it was pretty explicitly stated that Pig is > possessed by Silk, and the only way the "gods" can possess humans is through > eye contact. I don't think there's any explicit indication that Silk-in-Pig > is uploaded back into Mainframe after Pig gets Horn's eye, but it's at least > a plausible motive for Silkhorn's determination to restore Pig's sight. > > (Although now that I think about it, while the downloading of AIs into > living brains through the eye is "plausible" in a skiffy sort of way, it's > gosh-darn hard to see how it could go the other way. Eyes don't broadcast, > after all; and I don't see how a computer, just by looking into someone's > eye, could learn enough about the brain's neural connections to upload a > personality fragment with its attached memories.) > > Otoh, I've never bought the idea that Silk's personality was erased from his > brain when Horn entered, or that Horn was repossessed by Silk through the > monitor at the pole. > > --Adam > > > -- ---