{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3346", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3346, "subject": "Silk-23 skidoo", "messages": 6, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-07-13T03:41:58+00:00", "last": "2002-07-18T14:34:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-13T03:41:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Silk-23 skidoo", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "William Ansley quoted me and wrote:\nLikewise I'm reasonably sure that we can all agree that we are in the\nbleachers of the arena, and the referees made the call: they said the words\n(talk of combining two persons), they backed it up with actions (taking out\nthe non-corporeal parts of Silk aged 40-something; transferring in Horn's\nnon-corporeal parts; the download from Mainframe of Silk-23 later on may\nhave been their doing or not, if it happened, that is).\n\nThe umpires made their call. This is not ambiguous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Now you've lost me. Who are the referees/umpires? And why Silk-*23*?\nI don't mean to be irritating, but I could use some clarification." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The umpires are the Neighbors, the ones who told dying Horn what they were\ngoing to do and then did it.\n\nWhy \"Silk-23\": because, rather than get into the slippery religous \"soul in\nthe machine\" line of thinking, I have always taken Wolfe's use of uploading\nhuman consciousness in the Long and Short Sun series in the very straight\nnew wave/cyberpunk mode. That is, imho, it is neither \"soulful\" heavenly,\nnor is it a mechanical life-caricature nightmare (this either/or state,\ntechno-heaven or techno-hell, has been strongly present in the last few\nyears of YEAR'S BEST SF, fwiw: very current burning issue, at least as far\nas YBSF goes). It is just there, like a Varley brain datastream that could\nbe beamed into a clone to start-up right at the moment after the scan was\nfirst taken: there is no vital essence to the data, but there may be a copy\nlimit (only one check out at a time, please).\n\n(OTOH, the visit to Mainframe heaven at the end of Long Sun was a tad\ncreepy, a shadowy show compared to the near-death experiences Silk had of\nghosts, which seemed a bit more rich and \"real\" in comparison.)\n\nSo, in a sense, Pas is planning a \"comeback\" tour for his favorite son,\nSilk. The last few decades have not gone well for this ubermensch -- after\na meteoric rise from obscurity (\"Silk for Calde'\") and a heroic adventure,\nwell, the whole thing went downhill. Why not jumpstart the whole thing by\ndownloading that scan made of Silk at the moment of his glory, when he was\naround 23 years old, into the 43 year old body? Pretend like that\ndepressing stuff never happened -- reload the hero and get on with the\nheroics, without being paralyzed by mid-life depression and shattered\ndreams.\n\nAnyway. My position has been that Silk-43 brain-data was erased from the\n43-year-old Silk body; Horn brain-data was downloaded via the Neighbors\n(by-passing the whole monitor mechanism); later on, Silk-23 brain-data was\ntransferred from Pig to Horn-in-Silk via the eye and the monitor.\n\nThat is why \"Silk-23\" and \"if it happened, that is.\"\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:14:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk-23 skidoo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 12 Jul 2002, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nAnyway. My position has been that Silk-43 brain-data was erased from the\n43-year-old Silk body; Horn brain-data was downloaded via the Neighbors\n(by-passing the whole monitor mechanism); later on, Silk-23 brain-data was\ntransferred from Pig to Horn-in-Silk via the eye and the monitor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting theory - and kind of sinister - instead of Silk conquering Pas\nin Mainframe, Pas is secretly still around pulling all the strings.\n\nBut the Narrator can't be a complete reboot back to the Silk-23 back-up\ndata, because he still knows and is trying to avoid facing the fact that\nHyacinth is dead.\n\n\"I could not look upon Hyacinth, dead.\" - isn't that a line from a famous\npoem (with someone else's name in for Hyacinth)?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-07-16T16:31:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk-23 skidoo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 7/12/02 10:41 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com\nwrote:\nAnyway. My position has been that Silk-43 brain-data was erased from the\n43-year-old Silk body; Horn brain-data was downloaded via the Neighbors\n(by-passing the whole monitor mechanism); later on, Silk-23 brain-data was\ntransferred from Pig to Horn-in-Silk via the eye and the monitor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've stated my objections to this view before, so I won't repeat myself.\nBut it just occurred to me that this position is also incompatible with the\nview (which seems to be the majority view) that it's Silk-in-Horn that\nimpels Horn to donate an eye to Pig so that Silk-in-Pig can be uploaded into\nMainframe, even at the apparent price of his mission's failure. What is\nyour view of Horn's motive?\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-16T19:16:25+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk-23 skidoo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Adam quoted me and wrote:\nAnyway. My position has been that Silk-43 brain-data was erased from the\n43-year-old Silk body; Horn brain-data was downloaded via the Neighbors\n(by-passing the whole monitor mechanism); later on, Silk-23 brain-data was\ntransferred from Pig to Horn-in-Silk via the eye and the monitor." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've stated my objections to this view before, so I won't repeat myself.\nBut it just occurred to me that this position is also incompatible with the\nview (which seems to be the majority view) that it's Silk-in-Horn that\nimpels Horn to donate an eye to Pig so that Silk-in-Pig can be uploaded into\nMainframe, even at the apparent price of his mission's failure. What is\nyour view of Horn's motive?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm confused by the term \"Silk-in-Horn\" in this context. I would say, in\nthis case and this reading, that it is \"Horn-in-Silk\" who is still\nquixotically looking for \"Silk\" (quixotic because the Silk he is looking\nfor is a character in a book that Horn wrote).\n\nSo it is Horn who makes the eye-sacrifice in order to get Silk-in-Pig out\nof Pig and into the Silk body. I don't see much rhyme or reason in getting\nSilk-in-Pig back into Mainframe, fwiw, but maybe I'm forgetting something\n-- did Silk-in-Pig have some important news to report in VR person?\n\nHorn would make the sacrifice in order to complete his mission. But in\nspite of his sacrifice, the narrator feels he has failed -- because he\ndoesn't have the Silk he came to get (whether it is because Silk-in-Pig\nwent into Mainframe instead of into Silk, or because the real Silk Horn has\n[Silk-43, Silk-23, or both or neither] does not measure up to the literary\nSilk that Horn and everybody else on Blue is expecting). (I agree I can't\nfollow the motivation of what you have described.)\n\nAbout the scan I'm calling Silk-23. Yes, it might have some Pas elements\nadded to it, but since I don't recall any non-Silk details that would be\npositively Pas-like (for example, it seems to me that Pas would love to be\na ruler and would never walk away from such a role; polygamy would be a\nfine thing; etc.), well. Calling it Passilk seems a bit heavy on the Pas\nside, but if that helps people grasp the concept, it could be useful.\n\nAs for when the scan was taken: I thought it was taken from the pool in the\nhotel, a very happy time (perhaps the happiest moment in Silk's life), not\nonboard the airship. But again, I could be wrong.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n31 copies of \"Snake's-hands\" until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-07-18T14:19:19+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk-23 skidoo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 7/16/02 2:16 PM, Michael Andre-Driussi at mantis at siriusfiction.com wrote:\nI'm confused by the term \"Silk-in-Horn\" in this context." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This reflects my view that Silk is present in \"Horn\" (or Silkhorn, the\nNarrator, or whatever you want to call him) throughout." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would say, in\nthis case and this reading, that it is \"Horn-in-Silk\" who is still\nquixotically looking for \"Silk\" (quixotic because the Silk he is looking\nfor is a character in a book that Horn wrote).\n\nSo it is Horn who makes the eye-sacrifice in order to get Silk-in-Pig out\nof Pig and into the Silk body. I don't see much rhyme or reason in getting\nSilk-in-Pig back into Mainframe, fwiw, but maybe I'm forgetting something\n-- did Silk-in-Pig have some important news to report in VR person?\n\nHorn would make the sacrifice in order to complete his mission." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm, maybe I'd misremembered the earlier debate. But I still see a few\nproblems with this position.\n\n1) Horn doesn't know, or refuses to admit, that he's in Silk's body, so he\nwouldn't know that he was transferring Silk-in-Pig into Silk's body.\n\n2) Iirc, even after Horn recognizes that Silk is possessing Pig, he\ncontinues to look for the physical Silk. Of course, maybe he just wants a\nsecond string to his bow.\n\n3) There is no mention in the text of this plan of Horn's nor afaik any\nindication that Horn thinks of his mission in any other way than bringing\nthe physical Silk to Viron. Perhaps Horn suppressed this plan when talking\nto his sons, or his sons when they were briefing Daisy; but why would they\ndo that?\n\n4) When the \"is Silk in the Narrator on the Whorl\" question was last\ndiscussed, it was asked (as Rostrum has just asked) how Horn's failure to\nrecognize that he's in Silk's body was to be explained if Silk wasn't\npresent in Horn. Iirc, the answer was given that Horn can't accept that his\nunworthy self is in the body of his idol Silk. I find this implausible in\nany case; but if it's true, then it would surely be all the more\ninconceivable for Horn to contemplate transferring Silk's personality into\nthe body he was inhabiting.\n\n5) In any case, why would Horn think that just because he gives Pig an eye\nand puts him in front of a monitor, Silk-in-Pig will jump into *him*? For\nthat matter, if Horn wants to be possessed by Silk, why not just stand in\nfront of a monitor and get possessed by Silk-in-Mainframe directly, rather\nthan at second hand?\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-18T14:34:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Silk-23 skidoo", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, 18 Jul 2002, Adam Stephanides wrote:\n5) In any case, why would Horn think that just because he gives Pig an eye\nand puts him in front of a monitor, Silk-in-Pig will jump into *him*? For\nthat matter, if Horn wants to be possessed by Silk, why not just stand in\nfront of a monitor and get possessed by Silk-in-Mainframe directly, rather\nthan at second hand?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This objection is so obvious, I'm surprised we haven't articulated it\nbefore -- I feel like it's been in the back of my head all this time. \n\nThe only answer I can think of would be if Silk-in-Pig wants to go to his\nSilk body more than any of the mainframe versions of Silk.\n\nBut in any case, I think Horn's motives are to restore Pig's sight and\nallow Silk-in-Pig to get out to wherever he wants to go (like Scylla\nwanting out of Oreb -- although note here that Scylla does not go from\nOreb back to Mainframe, but from Oreb to her original body -- so maybe\nthat analogy supports mantis's theory after all!)\n\n-Rostrum" } ] } ] }