{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3349", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3349, "subject": "Severian's Daughter", "messages": 7, "voices": 5, "first": "2002-07-13T16:23:41+00:00", "last": "2002-07-29T18:23:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jennifer Van Goethem", "address": "screeminwillie at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-07-13T16:23:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Daughter", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a thought, but it seems to me that Thais (isn't\nthat a Jack Vance character?) at the end of Urth has\nsome striking similarities to Severian.\n\nShe's tall, \"dark and hollow cheeked\".\n\nShe sleeps on her stomach, cradling her head in her\narms, as Severian \"has so often lain\".\n\nShe seems about to tell Severian something when he\noffers up his blanket, but is stopped short by Pega. \nPerhaps, \"no, Pop, here take my blanket.\"\n\nAnyway, I realize it's thin, but I've seen stranger\ntheories, supported with less. So...\n\nJenn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "servo", "address": "servo at robot.com" }, "date": "2002-07-27T16:07:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's Daughter", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just a thought, but it seems to me that Thais (isn't\nthat a Jack Vance character?) at the end of Urth has\nsome striking similarities to Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes! Of Dorcas, with her leaden morning sickness! Why else would Severian be\ndelighted to meet anyone? And why else would Wolfe had put her on the \"boat,\"\nand not had her talk?\n\nHmm... perhaps...\n\n\nServo\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\nStories.Com is the premiere reading and writing community!\nFREE email, portfolios, friends & fun @ http://www.Stories.Com/\n-------------------------------------------------------------------" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-07-28T00:42:01+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's Daughter", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 12:07 PM\nSubject: (urth) Severian's Daughter\nJust a thought, but it seems to me that Thais (isn't\nthat a Jack Vance character?) at the end of Urth has\nsome striking similarities to Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes! Of Dorcas, with her leaden morning sickness! Why else would Severian\nbe\ndelighted to meet anyone? And why else would Wolfe had put her on the\n\"boat,\"\nand not had her talk?\n\nHmm... perhaps...\n\n\nServo\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\nStories.Com is the premiere reading and writing community!\nFREE email, portfolios, friends & fun @ http://www.Stories.Com/\n-------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-07-28T01:03:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's Daughter", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Just a thought, but it seems to me that Thais (isn't\nthat a Jack Vance character?) at the end of Urth has\nsome striking similarities to Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes! Of Dorcas, with her leaden morning sickness! Why else would Severian\nbe\ndelighted to meet anyone? And why else would Wolfe had put her on the\n\"boat,\"\nand not had her talk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What an interesting and original idea! Now that you bring it up, it seems\nvery posssible, given Thais's desrciption. Here, from the Penguin\nDictionary of Saints is some info about Thais:\n\n\"Her legend relates that Thais was a notorious harlot, very beautiful and\nvery wealthy, who lived in Egypt during the fourth century. St. Pahinutus,or\nsome other desert monk, was fired with the idea of bringing her back to a\nvirtuous life, an enterprise in which he was successful at their first\nmeeting.She made a public bonfire of her wardrobe and jewelery, and was then\ntaken to a house of nuns, where she entered on a penetential course, never\nleaving her cell. After three years, she was readmitted to the church's\ncommunion, and died a fortnight later. It is the general opinion of scholars\nthat this is nothing more than a moral tale, written for edification; its\nstarting point may have been the Egyptian mistress of Alexander the Great,\nwhose name was Thais.\"\n\nThat Thais was one of those notoriously witty courtesans. Legendarily, she\npersuaded Alexander to set fire to Persepolis--this is the subject of\nDryden's \"Ode to St. Cecelia's Day.\" (Britannica).\n\n-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jennifer Van Goethem", "address": "screeminwillie at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-07-28T01:50:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's Daughter", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes! Of Dorcas, with her leaden morning sickness!\nWhy else would Severian be\ndelighted to meet anyone? And why else would Wolfe\nhad put her on the \"boat,\"\nand not had her talk?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as I glance back over UTNS, it seems unlikely\nthat Thais could be Severian's kid by Dorcas. The\nlast he saw of her was a decade or so before leaving\nto get the New Sun, and he returns several more\ndecades latter, if poor shriveled Valaria is any\nindication. Thais is in Severian's estimation \"fairly\nyoung\", so perhaps a grandchild?\n\nShe does seem to know her way around a boat, being a\n\"sensible woman...bailing downwind.\" She is\nremarkably quiet in the discussion of the\nhypothetical, illegitimate heirs of Auturch Severian. \nAnd even more quiet after they're all reunited on the\nboat. Seems some discussion was had in Severian's\nabsence, huh? And what was she going to say before\nPega elbows her in the ribs? For that matter, what's\nthe secret exchange between Pega and Odillo just prior\nto that? \n\nMore questions than answers I'm afraid.\n\nGood Luck to anyone willing to try on this one.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-07-29T14:37:15+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Severian's Daughter", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm... well if she's a former sailor, perhaps her sailing experience is not\nlimited to the water. If she's been a crewman on a ship like Severian was on\nto retrieve the New Sun.....\n\nYou are right more questions that answers... so far.\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Jennifer Van Goethem [mailto:screeminwillie at yahoo.com]\nSent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 8:50 PM\nTo: urth at urth.net\nSubject: Re: (urth) Severian's Daughter\nWell, as I glance back over UTNS, it seems unlikely\nthat Thais could be Severian's kid by Dorcas. The\nlast he saw of her was a decade or so before leaving\nto get the New Sun, and he returns several more\ndecades latter, if poor shriveled Valaria is any\nindication. Thais is in Severian's estimation \"fairly\nyoung...\n\nShe does seem to know her way around a boat, being a\n\"sensible woman...bailing downwind\nMore questions than answers I'm afraid." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Robert Borski", "address": "rborski at charter.net" }, "date": "2002-07-29T18:23:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Severian's Daughter", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "J-the-Genealogist having self-corrected herself:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, as I glance back over UTNS, it seems unlikely\nthat Thais could be Severian's kid by Dorcas. The\nlast he saw of her was a decade or so before leaving\nto get the New Sun, and he returns several more\ndecades latter, if poor shriveled Valaria is any\nindication. Thais is in Severian's estimation \"fairly\nyoung\", so perhaps a grandchild?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Glad you caught this, because any daughter by Dorcas would be at least 50\nyears old (Severian making the trip to Yesod in the tenth year of his\nAutarchy and returning 40 years later), and while the granddaughter\npostulate is interesting, it is also flawed. This is because Severian and\n\"Thais\" have met at least twice before.\n\nBear with me here as I attempt to explain why I believe this is so.\n\nShortly after Severian joins Odilo, Pega, and Thais on their makeshift raft,\nOdilo begins an anecdote about how his father once encountered Severian in\nthe secret passageways of the House Absolute. Severian, dressed in the\nfulignin of a carnifex, is thought by Odilo père to be on his way to a\nmasque, \"of which there are several in one part or another of the House\nAbsolute on any given night. Yet,\" as Odilo fils continues to explain, his\nfather \"knew none was to take place in our Hypogeum Apotropaic, neither\nFather Inire nor the then Autarchy having much fondness for those\ndiversions.\"\n\nNotice now both Severian's and Thais's reaction:\n\n\"I smiled, recalling the House Azure. The dark woman shot me a significant\nglance and ostentatiously covered her lips with her hand.\" Severian thinks\nThais wants him to cut Odilo's anecdote short here, but I believe she's\nattempting to enjoin his silence, fearing he's recognized her. Thus the\nsignificance glance.\n\nThere are also clues in the House Azure and Hypogeum Apotropaic\nreferences--these being the two places Severian and Thais have encountered\neach other previously.\n\nThe second of these takes place in CLAW. Severian, having escaped from the\nantechamber where he and Jonas have been imprisoned, is now looking for\nTerminus Est.\n\n\"I ascended some distance, reconnoitered the corridor there until I was\ncertain I was still lower than the antechamber, then began to climb again\nwhen I saw a young woman hurrying down the stair toward me.\n\n\"Our eyes met.\n\n\"In that moment, I felt sure, she was as conscious as I that we had\nexchanged glances thus before. In memory I heard her say again, \"My dearest\nsister,\" in that cooing voice, and the heartshaped face sprung into place.\nIt was not Thea, the consort of Vodalus, but the woman who looked like her\n(and no doubt borrowed her name) whom I had passed on the stair in the House\nAzure--she descending and I climbing, just as we were now.\"\n\nThea/Thais and Severian each continue on their respective ways. But then who\nis the very next person Severian encounters? Odilo père--who will then pass\non the anecdote of their meeting to Odilo fils, who will then tell the story\nto Severian on the raft fifty years hence. (Obviously, all the stairs in the\nHouse Absolute are designed by M. C. Escher.)\n\nAs for the first encounter in the House Azure, once again Severian is\nascending a stairs, this time with his inamorata-of-choice, who asks:\n\"'Aren't you coming?' She had already reached the top of the stair, nearly\nout of sight. Someone spoke to her, calling her 'my dearest sister,' and\nwhen I had gone up a few steps more I saw it was a woman very like the one\nwho had been with Vodalus, she of the heart-shaped face and the black hood.\nThis woman paid no heed to me, and as soon as I gave her room to do so\nhurried down the stairs.\"\n\nThus Thais/Thea appears at the very least to be a khaibit--perhaps assigned\nto a Mata Hari role. She is, after all, encountered in the Hypogeum\nApotropaic, which belongs to Father Inire, and who better to function as\nputative spymaster? And is it khaibit technomagic that accounts for how\nThea/Thais is able to preserve her youth (there being at least fifty years\nbetween encounters 2 and 3) or has Father Inire simply taught her how to\naccess the Corridors of Time? Both seem possible, but I like another theory\nbetter still.\n\nGiven how Thais is \"tall, dark and hollow-cheeked\" like Severian himself,\nand recalling that witch-prostitute connection, as well as the Cumaean's\nwords about how \"there are those who ride the night air who sometimes choose\nto borrow a human seeming,\" then factor in the twice-echoed \"My dearest\nsister\"--well, is it possible that Thais is Merryn?\n\n(Not that there may not be still another relative of Severian's aboard the\nraft, but I'll save my Pega-Pelagia-Agia speculations for elsewhen.)\n\nRobert Borski" } ] } ] }