Subject: (urth) Severian's Daughter

From: Jennifer Van Goethem <screeminwillie at yahoo.com>
Date: Sat, 13 Jul 2002 16:23:41 +0000

Just a thought, but it seems to me that Thais (isn't
that a Jack Vance character?) at the end of Urth has
some striking similarities to Severian.

She's tall, "dark and hollow cheeked".

She sleeps on her stomach, cradling her head in her
arms, as Severian "has so often lain".

She seems about to tell Severian something when he
offers up his blanket, but is stopped short by Pega. 
Perhaps, "no, Pop, here take my blanket."

Anyway, I realize it's thin, but I've seen stranger
theories, supported with less.  So...

Jenn

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From: servo <servo at robot.com>
Date: Sat, 27 Jul 2002 16:07:07 +0000

>some striking similarities to Severian.

Yes! Of Dorcas, with her leaden morning sickness! Why else would Severian be
delighted to meet anyone? And why else would Wolfe had put her on the "boat,"
and not had her talk?

Hmm... perhaps...

Servo
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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 00:42:01 +0000

----- Original Message -----
From: <servo at Robot.Com>
To: <urth at urth.net>
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 12:07 PM
Subject: (urth) Severian's Daughter

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:03:22 +0000

> delighted to meet anyone? And why else would Wolfe had put her on the
"boat,"

What an interesting and original idea! Now that you bring it up, it seems
very posssible, given Thais's desrciption.  Here, from the Penguin
Dictionary of Saints is some info about Thais:

"Her legend relates that Thais was a notorious harlot, very beautiful and
very wealthy, who lived in Egypt during the fourth century. St. Pahinutus,or
some other desert monk, was fired with the idea of bringing her back to a
virtuous life, an enterprise in which he was successful at their first
meeting.She made a public bonfire of her wardrobe and jewelery, and was then
taken to a house of nuns, where she entered on a penetential course, never
leaving her cell. After three years, she was readmitted to the church's
communion, and died a fortnight later. It is the general opinion of scholars
that this is nothing more than a moral tale, written for edification; its
starting point may have been the Egyptian mistress of Alexander the Great,
whose name was Thais."

That Thais was one of those notoriously witty courtesans. Legendarily, she
persuaded Alexander to set fire to Persepolis--this is the subject of
Dryden's "Ode to St. Cecelia's Day." (Britannica).

-alga

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From: Jennifer Van Goethem <screeminwillie at yahoo.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Jul 2002 01:50:22 +0000

> had put her on the "boat,"

Well, as I glance back over UTNS, it seems unlikely
that Thais could be Severian's kid by Dorcas.  The
last he saw of her was a decade or so before leaving
to get the New Sun, and he returns several more
decades latter, if poor shriveled Valaria is any
indication.  Thais is in Severian's estimation "fairly
young", so perhaps a grandchild?

She does seem to know her way around a boat, being a
"sensible woman...bailing downwind."  She is
remarkably quiet in the discussion of the
hypothetical, illegitimate heirs of Auturch Severian. 
And even more quiet after they're all reunited on the
boat.  Seems some discussion was had in Severian's
absence, huh?  And what was she going to say before
Pega elbows her in the ribs?  For that matter, what's
the secret exchange between Pega and Odillo just prior
to that?  

More questions than answers I'm afraid.

Good Luck to anyone willing to try on this one.

J

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at hotpop.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 14:37:15 +0000

Hmmm... well if she's a former sailor, perhaps her sailing experience is not
limited to the water. If she's been a crewman on a ship like Severian was on
to retrieve the New Sun.....

You are right more questions that answers... so far.

-----Original Message-----
From: Jennifer Van Goethem [mailto:screeminwillie at yahoo.com]
Sent: Saturday, July 27, 2002 8:50 PM
To: urth at urth.net
Subject: Re: (urth) Severian's Daughter
young...

She does seem to know her way around a boat, being a
"sensible woman...bailing downwind
More questions than answers I'm afraid.

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From: Robert Borski <rborski at charter.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 18:23:00 +0000

> young", so perhaps a grandchild?

Glad you caught this, because any daughter by Dorcas would be at least 50
years old (Severian making the trip to Yesod in the tenth year of his
Autarchy and returning 40 years later), and while the granddaughter
postulate is interesting, it is also flawed. This is because Severian and
"Thais" have met at least twice before.

Bear with me here as I attempt to explain why I believe this is so.

Shortly after Severian joins Odilo, Pega, and Thais on their makeshift raft,
Odilo begins an anecdote about how his father once encountered Severian in
the secret passageways of the House Absolute. Severian, dressed in the
fulignin of a carnifex, is thought by Odilo père to be on his way to a
masque, "of which there are several in one part or another of the House
Absolute on any given night. Yet," as Odilo fils continues to explain, his
father "knew none was to take place in our Hypogeum Apotropaic, neither
Father Inire nor the then Autarchy having much fondness for those
diversions."

Notice now both Severian's and Thais's reaction:

"I smiled, recalling the House Azure. The dark woman shot me a significant
glance and ostentatiously covered her lips with her hand." Severian thinks
Thais wants him to cut Odilo's anecdote short here, but I believe she's
attempting to enjoin his silence, fearing he's recognized her. Thus the
significance glance.

There are also clues in the House Azure and Hypogeum Apotropaic
references--these being the two places Severian and Thais have encountered
each other previously.

The second of these takes place in CLAW. Severian, having escaped from the
antechamber where he and Jonas have been imprisoned, is now looking for
Terminus Est.

"I ascended some distance, reconnoitered the corridor there until I was
certain I was still lower than the antechamber, then began to climb again
when I saw a young woman hurrying down the stair toward me.

"Our eyes met.

"In that moment, I felt sure, she was as conscious as I that we had
exchanged glances thus before. In memory I heard her say again, "My dearest
sister," in that cooing voice, and the heartshaped face sprung into place.
It was not Thea, the consort of Vodalus, but the woman who looked like her
(and no doubt borrowed her name) whom I had passed on the stair in the House
Azure--she descending and I climbing, just as we were now."

Thea/Thais and Severian each continue on their respective ways. But then who
is the very next person Severian encounters? Odilo père--who will then pass
on the anecdote of their meeting to Odilo fils, who will then tell the story
to Severian on the raft fifty years hence. (Obviously, all the stairs in the
House Absolute are designed by M. C. Escher.)

As for the first encounter in the House Azure, once again Severian is
ascending a stairs, this time with his inamorata-of-choice, who asks:
"'Aren't you coming?' She had already reached the top of the stair, nearly
out of sight. Someone spoke to her, calling her 'my dearest sister,' and
when I had gone up a few steps more I saw it was a woman very like the one
who had been with Vodalus, she of the heart-shaped face and the black hood.
This woman paid no heed to me, and as soon as I gave her room to do so
hurried down the stairs."

Thus Thais/Thea appears at the very least to be a khaibit--perhaps assigned
to a Mata Hari role. She is, after all, encountered in the Hypogeum
Apotropaic, which belongs to Father Inire, and who better to function as
putative spymaster? And is it khaibit technomagic that accounts for how
Thea/Thais is able to preserve her youth (there being at least fifty years
between encounters 2 and 3) or has Father Inire simply taught her how to
access the Corridors of Time? Both seem possible, but I like another theory
better still.

Given how Thais is "tall, dark and hollow-cheeked" like Severian himself,
and recalling that witch-prostitute connection, as well as the Cumaean's
words about how "there are those who ride the night air who sometimes choose
to borrow a human seeming," then factor in the twice-echoed "My dearest
sister"--well, is it possible that Thais is Merryn?

(Not that there may not be still another relative of Severian's aboard the
raft, but I'll save my Pega-Pelagia-Agia speculations for elsewhen.)

Robert Borski

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