{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3350", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3350, "subject": "Two Silk questions", "messages": 17, "voices": 9, "first": "2002-07-14T01:05:39+00:00", "last": "2002-07-16T08:24:35+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Bollen", "address": "abollen at cybercityhk.com" }, "date": "2002-07-14T01:05:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two questions which bug me about SIlk, and for which I don't see any clear answers or developed theories in the archives:\n\n(1) His \"other\" parents. At some point Silk has a vision which includes two sets of parents (memory hazy on details). We know who his \"host\" parents are; what about the others? Is there anything which gives us a hint?\n\n(2) In a response to questions a while back, Wolfe says that Silk, in some broad sense, is a member of the guild of torturers (under whatever their official name is). Also, there is some kind of hint to the effect that Silk makes some kind of appearance in the events of the Book of the New Sun. How are these rather gnomic intimations to be interpreted? \n\nTks! -AB" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Charles Reed", "address": "cmreed at link.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T15:07:09+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Bollen wrote:\nTwo questions which bug me about SIlk, and for which I don't see any\nclear answers or developed theories in the archives: (1) His \"other\"\nparents. At some point Silk has a vision which includes two sets of\nparents (memory hazy on details). We know who his \"host\" parents are;\nwhat about the others? Is there anything which gives us a hint?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Since his \"other\" parents -- being the ones biologically responsible for\nat least most of his DNA -- would have lived or at least had viable DNA\nduring Typhon's reign (300+ years ago Whorl-time-frame, 1000-2000+ years\nago Urth-time-frame) I'd have to conclude that there's no indication who\nthose people were unless they are members of the \"royal family.\" We\njust don't know of any other people from era that I'm aware of. It's\nactually pretty intriguing to think of Silk as a son of Typhon, but I'm\nnot sure there's any textual evidence to support such an idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " (2) In a response to questions a while back, Wolfe says that Silk, in\nsome broad sense, is a member of the guild of torturers (under\nwhatever their official name is). Also, there is some kind of hint to\nthe effect that Silk makes some kind of appearance in the events of\nthe Book of the New Sun. How are these rather gnomic intimations to be\ninterpreted?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "See http://urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml for the exact\nquestion and response.\n\nI believe that when GW identified Silk \"in the broadest possible sense\"\nas a \"member (current, former, or future) of the Order of Seekers for\nTruth and Penitence\" that he is simply saying that Silk is a true seeker\nof truth and penitence. Nothing more.\n\nAnd there's not really any interpretation necessary to the appearance of\nSilk/Horn in the Book of the New Sun. Have you finished RETURN TO THE\nWHORL yet? If not, then I don't want to spoil anything by telling you\nabout it.\n\nCharles" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-15T15:59:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 09:05 AM 7/14/2002 +0800, you wrote:\nTwo questions which bug me about SIlk, and for which I don't see any clear \nanswers or developed theories in the archives:\n\n(1) His \"other\" parents. At some point Silk has a vision which includes \ntwo sets of parents (memory hazy on details). We know who his \"host\" \nparents are; what about the others? Is there anything which gives us a hint?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Silk is dead at the time, buried and not breathing for 30 minutes. \nThe other couple are his biological parents. He meets them in the \nafterlife, before being sent back." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(2) In a response to questions a while back, Wolfe says that Silk, in some \nbroad sense, is a member of the guild of torturers (under whatever their \nofficial name is). Also, there is some kind of hint to the effect that \nSilk makes some kind of appearance in the events of the Book of the New \nSun. How are these rather gnomic intimations to be interpreted?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " You have not finished reading the Short Sun books, so we won't \ntell you about whether or not Silk appears in the Severian books. The \nprecise name of the torturer's guild is the Order of Seekers of Truth and \nPenitence, a name that would fit Silk and the Church as well. Wolfe \nprobably means more than that, possibly that as the State tortures \n(executes) criminals themselves, Silk as the Church slaughters animals as \nsubstitutes for human criminality (and in the Christian eucharist, \nre-presents the slaughter of Christ for human criminality).\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-15T16:36:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 15/07/2002 16:59:22 James Jordan wrote:\n Silk is dead at the time," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For tax reasons?\n\n\nM" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T17:27:38+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Bollen asked about:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Two questions which bug me about SIlk, and for which I don't see any\nclear answers or developed theories in the archives: (1) His \"other\"\nparents. At some point Silk has a vision which includes two sets of\nparents (memory hazy on details). We know who his \"host\" parents are;\nwhat about the others? Is there anything which gives us a hint?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As the others have already answered, the others are presumed to be his\nbiological parents. Now, as to the rest of the same question: who are\nthey, themselves. It is tricky, since we understand Silk was a frozen\nembryo. IIRC, just about the only thing we know about the biological\nparents is that both are blond, which goes along well with Silk being\nblond. To further complicate things, the embryo was probably genetically\naltered, given various enhancements (i.e., the embryo is not strictly\nnatural).\n\nBeyond this iirc there are suggestions made to Silk that are definitely\nmeant to be manipulative of him, and whether they contain a grain of truth\nor are entirely true remains open to speculation and interpretation. IIRC,\nI had the impression that Kypris and Pas (both blond) were the biological\nparents, or wanted him to believe that (the secret love child of the\nadulterous affair); which raises an interesting problem, because clearly\nthe two blonds he saw were not gods. I would've sworn all this was\ncovered here before, but I guess not: So I privately entertained the idea\nthat maybe the ones he saw were the un-deified versions of Kypris and Pas,\nthe raw, unenhanced scans of two mundane people (hmmm, and I guess that\nwould have to have happened before Typhon got the second head?) in\nMainframe. Or maybe the difference between fake-heaven Mainframe and real\nheaven (real heaven would not have Typhon with two heads)--and Silk has\nseen them in real heaven? (Which would add something to Silk's dampened\nenthusiasm at the airship's Mainframe visit.)\n\nOTOH, the hypothetical claim to being parents of Silk could also be traced\nto the genetic engineering: Kypris and Pas drew up the blueprint of\nmodifications to an embryo created from two blond mundanes.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:02:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pas is not yet dead when Silk sees his dead biological parents in the \nOutsider's \"Mainframe,\" so he cannot be Silk's father. I think the \nblondness of Pas and Kypris is a thematic parallel, or a red herring, or both.\n You might be right that they chose Silk because of blond parents \n(how common would such be in South America?). Yet, given how the embryos \nhave been ruined, how could they know when he would be born, or that he \nwould be born before landfall? Not possible to plan this, I think. The \nselection of Silk's embryo for birth is part of the Outsider's plan, not Pas's.\n Thus, I think it is a literary coincidence.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T17:59:56+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Charles Reed wrote:\nI believe that when GW identified Silk \"in the broadest possible sense\"\nas a \"member (current, former, or future) of the Order of Seekers for\nTruth and Penitence\" that he is simply saying that Silk is a true seeker\nof truth and penitence. Nothing more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, Severian tortures others for their sins. Silk tortures himself for\nhis sins.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:05:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, James Jordan wrote:\nPas is not yet dead when Silk sees his dead biological parents in the \nOutsider's \"Mainframe,\" so he cannot be Silk's father. I think the \nblondness of Pas and Kypris is a thematic parallel, or a red herring, or both." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Pas\" has no genes from which to make Silk. Typhon did (skin cells from\nhis head, or germ cells frozen from his original body). And Typhon is\ndead by Silk's time. Silk might be an embryo engineered from the genes of\nTyphon and .\n\nThe harder bit to swollow is that Silk's spirit would go to the same place\nas Typhon's when he died.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:08:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rostrum sez:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Pas\" has no genes from which to make Silk. Typhon did (skin \ncells from his head, or germ cells frozen from his original body).\nAnd Typhon is dead by Silk's time. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, no ... he's in suspended animation on Mount Typhon." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:25:22+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, James Jordan wrote:\nPas is not yet dead when Silk sees his dead biological parents in the\nOutsider's \"Mainframe,\" so he cannot be Silk's father. I think the\nblondness of Pas and Kypris is a thematic parallel, or a red herring, or both.\n You might be right that they chose Silk because of blond parents\n(how common would such be in South America?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is extremely common in southern South America, especially Argentina.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:27:35+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just about 2/3 through RttW and (to resolve some doubts others have\nexpressed)\nthere is a clear statement by a Neighbor that they (a) travelled to the\n_Whorl\nwhen it arrived in the Bleen system, and (b) \"we infected you with inhumi.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:29:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Josh Geller wrote:\n You might be right that they chose Silk because of blond parents\n(how common would such be in South America?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is extremely common in southern South America, especially Argentina." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, but how common are destriers in South America? The real question is\nhow rare blonds were in the Commonwealth in Typhon's time.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:31:37+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nJust about 2/3 through RttW and (to resolve some doubts others have\nexpressed)\nthere is a clear statement by a Neighbor that they (a) travelled to the\n_Whorl\nwhen it arrived in the Bleen system, and (b) \"we infected you with inhumi.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is it too late to lobby for calling it the Grue System, in honor of Dave\nLebling's presence on the list?\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-16T08:24:35+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "e\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Michael Straight\" \nTo: \n\nIt is extremely common in southern South America, especially Argentina." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, but how common are destriers in South America? The real question is\nhow rare blonds were in the Commonwealth in Typhon's time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are common, Dorcas' extreme blondness is not remarked upon.\n\nI never really understood this point. Isn't there somewhere in the BOTNS\nwhere Severian says that it is known that each continent has a pattern for\nhumanity, and that if people move from one land to another they will change\nto fit it?\n\nIf so, how come there are European lloking people in South America (or for\nthat matter, North America?)\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:43:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 16 Jul 2002, Andy Robertson wrote:\nI never really understood this point. Isn't there somewhere in the BOTNS\nwhere Severian says that it is known that each continent has a pattern for\nhumanity, and that if people move from one land to another they will change\nto fit it?\n\nIf so, how come there are European lloking people in South America (or for\nthat matter, North America?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The climate has changed quite a bit, what with the Sun getting dimmer, so\nSouth America is probably a lot more habitable for fair-skinned,\nlight-eyed folks." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:43:04+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nutria wrote:\nPas is not yet dead when Silk sees his dead biological parents in the\nOutsider's \"Mainframe,\" so he cannot be Silk's father." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, but we are talking =biological= life here, not VR life in Mainframe.\nAnd I'm sure you will agree that Typhon, the biological pre-form of Pas, is\nlong dead by the time of Silk; as is Typhon's extramarital girlfriend.\n\n(I mean, as far as a =spiritual= father for Silk, obviously that would be\nPatera Pike, but he does not show up in the four parents. The biological\nparents are shown and the foster mother who bore him and raised him, and\nthe calde' who she loved.)\n\nThe stretch is that the original scans (Typhon and bimbo) become the first\nmundane inhabitants of Mainframe, which then becomes more populated as\ngenerations die and are uploaded.\n\nMaybe it is the contrast between real heaven and Mainframe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the\nblondness of Pas and Kypris is a thematic parallel, or a red herring, or both.\n You might be right that they chose Silk because of blond parents\n(how common would such be in South America?). Yet, given how the embryos\nhave been ruined, how could they know when he would be born, or that he\nwould be born before landfall? Not possible to plan this, I think. The\nselection of Silk's embryo for birth is part of the Outsider's plan, not\nPas's.\n Thus, I think it is a literary coincidence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, that is valid.\n\nBut what I'm talking about has nothing to do with \"how could they know when\nhe would be born.\" It has everything to do with genetic identification,\nlike a remote DNA test or whatever. A genetic fingerprint that can be\ndetected. Through Mainframe, Silk is known at a level deeper than surface\nfeatures; it seems likely to me that his genetic enhancements raise cryptic\nflags that at least conspirator gods (i.e., Pas and Kypris) can see, if not\nflags that all gods can see.\n\nMainframe, I contend, is not just a bunch of timetables and birth\nannouncements, with every little ant-like person being tracked from cradle\nto grave. Mainframe has more to it than just matching up a face to a\ndriver's license photo or auger's certificate to determine identity.\n\nAt the more pedestrian level, I'm saying that when a person dies and goes\nto Mainframe (which seems to have VR ghosts of real people), the entity in\nMainframe is a scan that was taken of the living person: this scan is held\nin limbo until the death of the person and then it is released into the\nMainframe visiting lounge or Mainframe proper. Ideally perhaps the scan\nwould be taken at the moment of dying, but how often this could happen (one\nneeds to be facing a working monitor, after all) remains vague.\n\nThe old calde' talked Silk's surrogate mother into carrying the frozen\nembryo to term; the child is born, as a man he is recognized by Kypris, and\nthings begin to happen. In retrospect, if we believe that Silk was an\nengineered creature built to Pas's secret specifications, as I think most\nof us do, then he is just another hidden tool, like a cane-sword, for Pas\nto use should the need arise. The shocking thing would be if cunning Pas\nhad only made =one= such tool, and there are plenty of hints that he made\nmany, and hints that the other gods and goddesses had their own secret\nprojects as well. Tools that are squirreled away in the woodwork, just in\ncase they might be needed. Plus we know that there was a lot of family\ntension, on the Whorl and in the biological pre-forms left back on Urth,\nleading to big rebellion.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:52:08+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Two Silk questions", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I never really understood this point. Isn't there somewhere \nin the BOTNS where Severian says that it is known that each\ncontinent has a pattern for humanity, and that if people move\nfrom one land to another they will change to fit it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know it's somewhere, but it might actually be in \"Castle\nof the Otter\" in Wolfe's own voice, so to speak." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If so, how come there are European lloking people in South \nAmerica (or for that matter, North America?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because he also says it takes a long time (I think O(100) \ngeneration) to accomplish this." } ] } ] }