{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3352", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3352, "subject": "Some Scattered Thoughts: some short, one very long.", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-07-15T18:53:59+00:00", "last": "2002-07-16T16:22:42+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T18:53:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Some Scattered Thoughts: some short, one very long.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1. Silk's relationship with Hyacinth. This simply cannot be understood\noutside of the context of the (very short) book of the prophet Hosea \nin the Bible. To summarize thematically: Hosea, at God's command, \nmarries a whore and repeatedly forgives her straying; this is intended \nas a metaphor for God's relationship with Israel (and, in Christian \nunderstanding, also for Christ's relationship with the Church). \n\n2. Can someone explain to me why people have trouble believing that \nSilk might have gashed his arms in grief? Not only is this clearly \nestablished as a grieving practice in Viron (see, for example, \nOrpine's funeral); it is a well established historically as a practice \nin the \"real\" world. And, as Nutria so succintly put it, \"I don't \nthink this skilled auger tried to kill himself and failed.\" \n\n3. Regarding the identity of Silk and/or his parents ... I wonder if \nthey might not be Typhon's parents; that is, whether Silk might in \nfact be a clone taken from Typhon's own cells? Consider Typhon's \nconcern for the \"face of command\" which drives him to the whole-head \ntransplant, with all its inconveniences, he chooses over a simple \nbrain transplant. Is it possible, or even likely, that Typhon's own \nsuccess is due to the \"leader\" geneplex which marks Silk out? Might \nnot Typhon have wanted his own \"face of command\" back when he became \nincarnate again at the starcrosser's arrival? And would a \"better\" \nperson grown from the same biogenetic substrate not be the ideal \npersona to blend with the dead-alive Pas, to bring him back to full \nlife in Mainframe? This is just a hunch, but it seems worth exploring.\n\n(Later: Just saw Mantis' suggestion that they might be the mortal\nversions of Kypris and Pas. Interesting ... and it would also provide \na way of conveying Pas's geneplex for leadership to his next body.)\n\n4. (This is the very long one.)\n\nNo, Nutria, there is _not_ -- at this point, anyway -- a consensus \nthat Horn is moved into Babbie at the end of OBW. There is some \nevidence that he is moved (or copied) to Babbie, possibly/probably at \nthat point, but no certainty by any means, and strong evidence that \nthe Horn persona is still present e.g. when Hide recognizes his father \nin the Narrator during his (Hide's) first astral trip to Green. \n\nI'm beginning to think I see a way out of this maze, but it's kind of \ncomplicated. \n\nWhat is moved from Horn's body to Silk's? Is it his \"soul\"? His \n\"spirit\" (which is spoken of several times through the course of the \nBooks)? A \"memory stream,\" as someone put it recently? A \n\"personality\"? Or ...\n\n *\n * *\n\nOne of the great problems facing any serious soulist today is the \nincreasingly clear evidence of how much of memory and behavior is\norganic in behavior. \n\nSuppose George takes a blow to the head and loses all his memory; when \nhe regains consciousness, he is in essence a new person, and the \npersonality he exhibits is quite different. Now, is there a new soul \ninhabiting or animating this body? Or is the \"soul\" something quite \ndifferent from (conscious) memory and (the external manifestations of) \npersonality? This is important to any soulist -- such as Wolfe, or \nmyself -- trying to understand just what this \"immortal part\" _is_.\n\nConsider, similarly, someone who suffers a less extreme cranial \ntrauma. He retains all memory, but is drastically changed -- there are \ncases of a \"normal\" person becoming antisocial, even vicious, after a \nhead blow. This is extremely problematic for the soulist: if physical \ntrauma can cause a person to become thus loveless and (at least \noutwardly) sinful, is the soul thereby damned, though there is no free \nchoice? A radical Calvinist _might_ have no problem with this; most \nother Christians are made a bit more uncomfortable when the problem is \nstated thus baldly.\n\nTaking this as a starting place, we can begin to see the Books (all \nthree of them) as, in part at least, an exploration of what these \nvarious things -- soul, spirit, memory, personality -- are and how \nthey relate. \n\n *\n * *\n\nIn tBotNS, the most conspicuous explorations of these questions are \nthe various memory-transfers using the analeptic alzabo; the alzabo \nitself; and Jonas. \n\nIn the general use of the analeptic alzabo, memories and nothing more \nseem to be transferred to the eater from the eaten. \n\nIn the special case of Severian and Thecla, it _appears_ that he (who \nhas shown a propensity for resurrecting the dead) actually brings her \nsoul or spirit or whatever to codwell in his body; however, this may \nbe no more than an appearance: it may simply be that he (who also has \na particularly strong capacity for memory) is an unusually fit \nreceptacle for memory. Yet, once or twice, he speaks in Thecla's \npersona, and once or twice, someone sees a woman \"with\" him who seems \nto be Thecla. So that's ambiguous, at least for now.\n\nThe alzabo itself seems to be better \"adapted\" than the general run of \nhumans for absorbing devoured memories, which is sensible enough given \nits apparent evolutionary strategy. This adaptation is good enough \nthat (like Severian with Thecla) it actually seems to incarnate the \npersonality of its victims, to the point where, having devoured and \n\"become\" the father of little Severian, it willingly(?) sacrifices \nitself to save its \"wife\" and \"child.\" To some extent, then, the \npersonality of the victim is more in control than that of the alzabo \nitself which, presumably, would not care about them except as food. \n(Actually, the two personalities seem almost perfectly blended in the \nnocturnal standoff, when the alzabo's hunger and the man's desire to \nbe reunited with his wife seek the same physical result, the \nassimilation of the wife.)\n\nFinally there is Jonas: who is the first person(ality) we know of, in \nthe Books, to leap from one body to another -- he seems to possess the\nbody of Miles in much the way that Horn will later possess that of\nSilk, although with far less reason/excuse given for it. The \npersonality of the resurrected Miles does not really seem all that\nmuch like Jonas, but occasionally exhibits bits of Jonasosity, to the\npoint where Severian is, at last, able to recognize his presence. In\nthe event, the Jonas persona seems to flee upon being told that \nJolenta is dead.\n\nWhat I'm looking at here is a possible comparison to the relationship\nbetween Horn and Silk in the person of the Narrator. In both cases, a\nnew personality is grafted into a severely damaged person (in the case\nof the Narrator, it's Silk's \"spirit\" which is severely damaged rather \nthan his body, which is moderately damaged). Over time, the primary\npersonality seems to heal and, at last, the grafted personality \nleaves.\n\nObviously there are remarkable differences -- for example, that the\ngrafted personality is the \"foreground\" personality in the case of the\nNarrator but the \"background\" personality in the case of Miles-Jonas.\nBut the similarities are interesting enough to bear in mind as we move\nforward.\n\n *\n * *\n\nI'm running out of time for this right now. Let me summarize:\n\nIn tBotSS, we need to examine (at least) the translation of Typhon and\nhis friends-and-relations to Mainframe; \"divine\" possession; Mucor;\nSilk's vision of his parents; and the rather horrible \"afterlife\" \nMainframe seems to give to the people of the _Whorl_.\n\nIn tBotLS, we have to add the nature and interrelationships between \nSilk, Horn, \"the Narrator,\" Pig, Babbie, and Pas; Scylla-in-Oreb; the \nnature of inhumi intelligence and personality; astral travel by \ninhumu; and possibly some understanding of what and where the \nNeighbors are. \n\n *\n * *\n\nMy tentative conclusions are as follows. Note that for all these, the \nimplicit condition is \"in the Lupiverse\" (which we may regard as\nrelated to the \"real\" universe by virtue of this being [my guesses at] \nWolfe's speculations about how it \"really\" works).\n\n1. \"Soul\" and/or \"spirit\" may or may not be the same thing, but they \nare clearly NOT the same as \"brain data\" about memory and personality -- the\nlatter being what is transferred to Mainframe or in the \nmechanism of the alzabo. (An extraordinarily important piece of \nevidence here is Pig's ability to \"see\" Mucor even though he can't \nsynch with Mainframe.)\n\n2. Memory/personality \"brain data\" affect, and are affected by, \"soul/ \nspirit.\" There is clearly a relationship between these (at least) two \nthings, but what that relationship is is, thus far, not clear.\n\n3. I _think_ that what is transferred from Horn to the Narrator is of\nthe nature of soul/spirit, rather than \"brain data\" as such: which\nimplies that soul/spirit in fact carries memory with it, independent\nof the physical \"brain data\" memory. (This is, for the soullist, a\nsomewhat comforting way of thinking about it.)\n\nMore? Probably. Later." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-15T19:05:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Some Scattered Thoughts: some short, one very long.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 15 Jul 2002, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nIn tBotSS, we have to add the nature and interrelationships between \nSilk, Horn, \"the Narrator,\" Pig, Babbie, and Pas; Scylla-in-Oreb; the \nnature of inhumi intelligence and personality; astral travel by \ninhumu; and possibly some understanding of what and where the \nNeighbors are. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Also, maybe the closest parallel to Horn's situation, dead Fava's spirit\nsomehow still wandering around in Mora's dreams and enabling them both to\nposess Vadsig." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1. \"Soul\" and/or \"spirit\" may or may not be the same thing, but they \nare clearly NOT the same as \"brain data\" about memory and personality -- the\nlatter being what is transferred to Mainframe or in the \nmechanism of the alzabo. (An extraordinarily important piece of \nevidence here is Pig's ability to \"see\" Mucor even though he can't \nsynch with Mainframe.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How so? I assumed that Pig could see Mucor for the same reason that Auk\ncouldn't see Tartaros. (i.e. Mucor stimulates the vision centers of Pig's\nbrain in the same way that Tartaros can't).\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T19:11:00+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Some Scattered Thoughts: some short, one very long.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(An extraordinarily important piece of \nevidence here is Pig's ability to \"see\" Mucor even though he can't \nsynch with Mainframe.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How so? I assumed that Pig could see Mucor for the same reason that\nAuk couldn't see Tartaros. (i.e. Mucor stimulates the vision centers\nof Pig's brain in the same way that Tartaros can't)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More to the point, the Mainframe gods can affect the vision centers \nonly through the eyes -- Pig, without eyes, cannot upload his Silk to\nMainframe. Mucor, walking about as a loose soul/spirit, can appear \ndirectly to Pig, probably to his soul/spirit (though I suppose a case\ncould be made that she is \"stimulating his vision centers\"). At any\nrate, the manner in which she appears to Pig is clearly of a different\norder from the way in which Mainframe gods manifest." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-16T16:22:42+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Some Scattered Thoughts: some short, one very long.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A handful of scattered thoughts:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:53 AM 7/15/2002 -0700, Blattid wrote:\n1. Silk's relationship with Hyacinth. This simply cannot be understood\noutside of the context of the (very short) book of the prophet Hosea\nin the Bible. To summarize thematically: Hosea, at God's command,\nmarries a whore and repeatedly forgives her straying; this is intended\nas a metaphor for God's relationship with Israel (and, in Christian\nunderstanding, also for Christ's relationship with the Church)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Well put." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, Nutria, there is _not_ -- at this point, anyway -- a consensus\nthat Horn is moved into Babbie at the end of OBW. There is some\nevidence that he is moved (or copied) to Babbie, possibly/probably at\nthat point, but no certainty by any means, and strong evidence that\nthe Horn persona is still present e.g. when Hide recognizes his father\nin the Narrator during his (Hide's) first astral trip to Green." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " My thinking was that the (non-)\"consensus\" might be that something \nof Horn is duplicated into Babbie, while Horn also remains in Silk until \nthe end, and then all of Horn is put into Babbie. I was asking whether \nthese are \"part\" of Horn, so that Horn is divided, or whether Horn as such \ngoes into Babbie and also remains in Silk, which seems more likely given \nthe \"wholeness\" of the other transfers and duplications. I.e., just as \nthere is more than one Silk running around (in Pig and in Silk himself), so \nthere is more than one Horn for a while (in Babbie and in Silk). As \nSilk-in-Pig seems to move into Silk, so Horn-in-Silk seems to move into \nBabbie fully at the end. That was my speculation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider, similarly, someone who suffers a less extreme cranial\ntrauma. He retains all memory, but is drastically changed -- there are\ncases of a \"normal\" person becoming antisocial, even vicious, after a\nhead blow. This is extremely problematic for the soulist: if physical\ntrauma can cause a person to become thus loveless and (at least\noutwardly) sinful, is the soul thereby damned, though there is no free\nchoice? A radical Calvinist _might_ have no problem with this; most\nother Christians are made a bit more uncomfortable when the problem is\nstated thus baldly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Thanks for the \"_might_\". As a \"Calvinist,\" I would say that God \noverlooks sins committed in ignorance, an application of Romans 3:25, \ngrounded in the distinction between \"sins of wandering astray\" and \n\"high-handed sins\" in Leviticus. Such sins don't erase the gift given at \nbaptism. As you probably know, true Calvinists hold \"free choice\" and \n\"predestination\" in paradox.\n\nNutria" } ] } ] }