{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3355", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3355, "subject": "Daddy Typhon?", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-07-15T21:29:35+00:00", "last": "2002-07-15T23:08:21+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-15T21:29:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Daddy Typhon?", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 11:43 AM 7/15/2002 -0700, you wrote:\nNutria wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Pas is not yet dead when Silk sees his dead biological parents in the\nOutsider's \"Mainframe,\" so he cannot be Silk's father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, but we are talking =biological= life here, not VR life in Mainframe.\nAnd I'm sure you will agree that Typhon, the biological pre-form of Pas, is\nlong dead by the time of Silk; as is Typhon's extramarital girlfriend." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I meant Typhon, not Pas. Sorry.\n But, no, I won't agree. You certainly remember more details than I \ndo, so help me out. Sure, Typhon's original body is gone, but his soul is \nalive, if asleep, waiting to be awakened by Severian and finally slain. So \nhe ain't dead.\n Or have we decided that when Silkhorn goes to Urth to visit \nSeverian he goes back in time? In that case Typhon would be dead. But it's \nhard to imagine Wolfe has him in the same Outsider heaven as Silk's \n\"adoptive\" parents. Typhon does not seem like the \"loving\" type that Silk \nsees during his period of death.\n Still, Typhon is not dead, not for another 20-30 years, from what \nI can tell.\n Help me out here.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T22:41:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Daddy Typhon?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mantis/nutria loop:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Pas is not yet dead when Silk sees his dead biological parents in the\nOutsider's \"Mainframe,\" so he cannot be Silk's father." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ah, but we are talking =biological= life here, not VR life in Mainframe.\nAnd I'm sure you will agree that Typhon, the biological pre-form of Pas, is\nlong dead by the time of Silk; as is Typhon's extramarital girlfriend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " I meant Typhon, not Pas. Sorry.\n But, no, I won't agree. You certainly remember more details than I\ndo, so help me out. Sure, Typhon's original body is gone, but his soul is\nalive, if asleep, waiting to be awakened by Severian and finally slain. So\nhe ain't dead.\n Or have we decided that when Silkhorn goes to Urth to visit\nSeverian he goes back in time? In that case Typhon would be dead. But it's\nhard to imagine Wolfe has him in the same Outsider heaven as Silk's\n\"adoptive\" parents. Typhon does not seem like the \"loving\" type that Silk\nsees during his period of death.\n Still, Typhon is not dead, not for another 20-30 years, from what\nI can tell.\n Help me out here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is a somewhat thornier question than the easier one I thought I was\naddressing. The short answer is that it has to do with what blattid was\nworking on earlier today: how many ways do the non-corporeal parts of a\nperson divide/separate, how are these elements different from each other,\nand how many places can a person be at one time?\n\nTo bear down for a moment on the point you have raised. In TBOTNS we have\nTyphon dead (absolutely dead -- not in suspended animation, but dead) and\nthen reanimated by the Claw. (If you are sticking to the suspended\nanimation notion then I guess this argument is lost on you and I'm wasting\nmy fingers.)\n\nWe understand that the Claw does this trick by bending time back . . . so\nthe \"Typhon\" essence who is restored to the body is the last one who was\nthere, a thousand years earlier. Just as Dorcas was raised from the dead.\n\nMeanwhile, the VR version of Typhon, made prior to Typhon's death (prior to\nthe rebellion, too) has been living through a few centuries of experience\non the Whorl. Pas goes through some pretty rough experiences and may be,\nas a result, softer and kinder than Typhon: that sense we have noticed in\nwhich TBOTLS is like a rehabilitation of the old tyrant.\n\nAs it turns out, TBOTSS all takes place a few years before Severian meets\nTyphon arisen. Until this moment, as I try out different permutations, I\nhad never thought of a system whereby the Claw restores Pas-360 to the body\nof Typhon . . . I simply thought that Typhon's real soul was being\nreinstated in the corpse, and Pas is a separate entity with a separate\nevolution and a separate soul (if such things exist for VR entities), like\nthe chems but without a body. (The Typhon Severian meets sure doesn't seem\nrehabilitated from the Typhon of URTH.)\n\nOn the one hand, we have Typhon in literally two places at the same time:\nan awakened tyrant on Urth and a benign god on a starship hundreds of\nlight-years away. But as we have seen with Severian, slivering off into\nApu-Punchau and all the others (not to forget the enigmatic Claw\nitself--likely element of the first Severian), things that were once the\nsame become different and independent.\n\nOr, if we go along with my notion that the blond couple is the original\nscan of Typhon and , then Typhon is in =three= places at once! (In\ncontrast to Severian, who has separate selves decently scattered across\nseparate centuries.)\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-15T23:08:21+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Daddy Typhon?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My fellow insect said:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you are sticking to the suspended animation notion then I guess\nthis argument is lost on you and I'm wasting my fingers.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the question of whether Typhon is dead or in SA might be \nambiguious ... I had certainly read him as being in SA up to this\nposting: in my reading of the passage, he appears to be hooked up \nto a device which sort of dehydrated him and kept his precious \nbodily fluids in a jar until it was time to reconstitute him, \norange-juice-like. Perhaps I'm wrong...\n\nA day without Typhon is like a night without nightmares." } ] } ] }