{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3361", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3361, "subject": "Satirists of the Commonwealth", "messages": 2, "voices": 2, "first": "2002-07-16T18:53:42+00:00", "last": "2002-07-17T14:37:00+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-16T18:53:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Satirists of the Commonwealth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alga wrote of the " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ascians, who are satirically presented. And GW has chosen to\ntake the satire further in the next two series: the \nTrivigaunts are not racially satirized, but in terms of \nfeminism, a cliché of male American humor in fantasy (see \n-The Land of Oz- 100 years ago). But in the SS series, he\ndoes racially satirize societies, specifically Indian and\nItalian. To me not very successfully--a real ho-hum genre \nfeel here--but feel free to disagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I do, I do! But not with the last statement; I think frankly, that, \nwith one exception, and the semi-exception of the Ascians, your \npremise -- that Wolfe's intent is satirical -- is incorrect. (I say \n\"semi,\" because there is no clear agreement as to what is being \nsatirized here; I was quite certain, reading the utterances of Loyal \nto the Group of Seventeen, that Wolfe was pointing his barb at Maoism \nand the \"Little-read Book.\" Others, I have learned on this list, have \nbeen equally certain that Wolfe is satirizing Orwell's \"Newspeak,\" \nwhich I find simply implausible.)\n\nThe full exception is Trivigaunte.\n\nBut I do not find the Trivigaunti culture any kind of \"satire\"\nof feminism. Perhaps this is because I myself am male ... but \nif so, then it's interesting that I completely failed to spot \nthis \"cliché of male American humor.\" (Not that I disagree: \nsatirizing feminism _is_ just that.) I found nothing funny about\nTrivigaunti culture; I found it an interesting (if less than \n100% successful) attempt to create a new human culture by taking\nan existing culture -- a sort of generic \"Islamic culture,\" to\nbe sure -- and inverting one of its basic donnés, the social and\nreligious hierarchy of male and female. \n\nNonetheless, I do find Trivigaunte satirical -- but of extreme \npatriarchalism/male-dominant sexism, not of feminism. \n\nTo be specific, I think Trivigaunti culture satirizes the more \nludicrous claims of male dominance, which perhaps do not have \ntheir full charge of stupidity when put before us because we \nare accustomed to seeing them put forth seriously, regain that \ncharge when reversed in this way: much the way Swift's Hounyhynms \n(or however you spell it) satirize the claimes for human dominance.\n\nThe odd thing is that I am not at all sure that Wolfe intended \nsuch a satire.\n\n*****\n\nI don't think, however, that Wolfe intends satire on the other\ncultures he uses as templates in the Long/Short Sun books. I think \nhe uses Indian and Italian -- and Dutch and Hispanic -- cultures \nas templates, but does not intend any criticism, satirical or \notherwise, of any of these cultures. One could, perhaps, argue that \nhe was too lazy to create \"new\" cultures; one could, on the other \nhand, claim that he was making a point about there being a limited \nset of cultural \"types\" into which humans will fall again and again. \nI don't have an opinion as between the two: but for the claim of \n\"satire\" to be sustained, I think you'd have to point out how (say) \nWolfe uses satiric tactics in the culture of Gaon to point out the\nflaws of \"real\" Indian culture. \n\nIn fact, I think that all the cultures depicted on Blue -- Gaonese,\nGrandecivitan, Dorpish, and New Vironese -- _are_ satirical, in a\nsense, but not of the human cultures on which they are patterned.\nRather, all of them seem, to me, to use the rhetoric of satire, in\na non-humorous mode, to point up general issues about the reasons\nwhy human societies in general fail to be humane. This is most \nblatantly obvious in New Viron and Dorp -- which is, perhaps, why \nyou don't mention Dutch and Hispanic culture as targets for satire?\n-- but the roots of war and unrest in Gaon and the Grandecivitan\ncolony towns are as universal as the corruption of Dorp and the\nstrong-man-ism of New Viron.\n\nEvery day a new adventure, every day the same" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-07-17T14:37:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Satirists of the Commonwealth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A thoughtful answer to a rather dashed-off statement.\n\nAlga wrote of the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ascians, who are satirically presented. And GW has chosen to\ntake the satire further in the next two series: the\nTrivigaunts are not racially satirized, but in terms of\nfeminism, a cliché of male American humor in fantasy (see\n-The Land of Oz- 100 years ago). But in the SS series, he\ndoes racially satirize societies, specifically Indian and\nItalian. To me not very successfully--a real ho-hum genre\nfeel here--but feel free to disagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Blattid repriled:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do, I do! But not with the last statement; I think frankly, that,\nwith one exception, and the semi-exception of the Ascians, your\npremise -- that Wolfe's intent is satirical -- is incorrect. (I say\n\"semi,\" because there is no clear agreement as to what is being\nsatirized here; I was quite certain, reading the utterances of Loyal\nto the Group of Seventeen, that Wolfe was pointing his barb at Maoism\nand the \"Little-read Book.\" Others, I have learned on this list, have\nbeen equally certain that Wolfe is satirizing Orwell's \"Newspeak,\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "which I find simply implausible.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The full exception is Trivigaunte.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, I agree; I was using \"satirical\" carelessly.\n\n-snip" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nonetheless, I do find Trivigaunte satirical -- but of extreme\npatriarchalism/male-dominant sexism, not of feminism." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "To be specific, I think Trivigaunti culture satirizes the more\nludicrous claims of male dominance, which perhaps do not have\ntheir full charge of stupidity when put before us because we\nare accustomed to seeing them put forth seriously, regain that\ncharge when reversed in this way: much the way Swift's Hounyhynms\n(or however you spell it) satirize the claimes for human dominance.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Viron doesn't seem to me especially male-dominated, not the way that\nTrivigaunte is female-dominated, at least on a street level (behind the\nscenes, or under the lake, yes, and of course New Viron--but that is another\nstory). Let me see what you're saying--by putting forth a militant female\nsociety, complete with the requisite lesbian officers, GW is satirizing\nmales rather than females? Hmm. Put it in cinematic terms: who would you, in\nthe audience, think was being satirized? OtOH, I don't think it is a nasty\nor pointed satire; I think, as you say, that it is a genuine exploration,\nbut that he had some manly fun with it. Baum had fun with General Jinjur and\nher army too--but then nearly everything in Baum's Oz is female-dominated,\nso one of the jokes is that there is no \"patriarchy\" to attack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The odd thing is that I am not at all sure that Wolfe intended\nsuch a satire.<<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure of your context: satire of men or of women? I think for sure he\nintended to satirize women, but I would agree that the satire of men that\nyou find implicit (and that I don't disagree with) may have escaped him.\n(And I think he intended General Mint to be a hero in every way--though with\na tad of affectionate condescension.)\n\n*****" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think, however, that Wolfe intends satire on the other\ncultures he uses as templates in the Long/Short Sun books. I think\nhe uses Indian and Italian -- and Dutch and Hispanic -- cultures\nas templates, but does not intend any criticism, satirical or\notherwise, of any of these cultures. One could, perhaps, argue that\nhe was too lazy to create \"new\" cultures; one could, on the other\nhand, claim that he was making a point about there being a limited\nset of cultural \"types\" into which humans will fall again and again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't have an opinion as between the two: but for the claim of\n\"satire\" to be sustained, I think you'd have to point out how (say)\nWolfe uses satiric tactics in the culture of Gaon to point out the\nflaws of \"real\" Indian culture. <<\n\nHere, I really was being careless. But so was he.The laziness annoyed me,\nalso the failure, except in silly ways (like Pig's embarrassing accent). to\nmake any real reference to these cultures. Indian culture was nonexistent\nexcept on the most cliched level (a harem, gorblimey); Italian culture\nlacked even that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In fact, I think that all the cultures depicted on Blue -- Gaonese,\nGrandecivitan, Dorpish, and New Vironese -- _are_ satirical, in a\nsense, but not of the human cultures on which they are patterned." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather, all of them seem, to me, to use the rhetoric of satire, in\na non-humorous mode, to point up general issues about the reasons\nwhy human societies in general fail to be humane. This is most\nblatantly obvious in New Viron and Dorp -- which is, perhaps, why\nyou don't mention Dutch and Hispanic culture as targets for satire?\n-- but the roots of war and unrest in Gaon and the Grandecivitan\ncolony towns are as universal as the corruption of Dorp and the\nstrong-man-ism of New Viron.<<\n\nI didn't mention Dutch and Hispanic because they slipped my mind as more\nperipheral. Yes, I think you are correct about the intent, but the execution\nseems obvious, superficial and two-dimensional to me, not nearly as\ninteresting as the inhumi-human-Neighbor situation, and not as illuminating\nof the human condition either. In short, I became bored and highly critical\nof the cardboard aspects of this thread in the third book in particular. But\nin general, I agree with you about the use of \"satirical,\" and stand\ncorrected.\n\n-alga" } ] } ] }