Subject: (urth) Satirists of the Commonwealth

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <ddanehy at siebel.com>
Date: Tue, 16 Jul 2002 18:53:42 +0000

Alga wrote of the 

> Ascians, who are satirically presented. And GW has chosen to
> take the satire further in the next two series: the 
> Trivigaunts are not racially satirized, but in terms of 
> feminism, a cliché of male American humor in fantasy (see 
> -The Land of Oz- 100 years ago). But in the SS series, he
> does racially satirize societies, specifically Indian and
> Italian. To me not very successfully--a real ho-hum genre 
> feel here--but feel free to disagree.

I do, I do! But not with the last statement; I think frankly, that, 
with one exception, and the semi-exception of the Ascians, your 
premise -- that Wolfe's intent is satirical -- is incorrect. (I say 
"semi," because there is no clear agreement as to what is being 
satirized here; I was quite certain, reading the utterances of Loyal 
to the Group of Seventeen, that Wolfe was pointing his barb at Maoism 
and the "Little-read Book." Others, I have learned on this list, have 
been equally certain that Wolfe is satirizing Orwell's "Newspeak," 
which I find simply implausible.)

The full exception is Trivigaunte.

But I do not find the Trivigaunti culture any kind of "satire"
of feminism. Perhaps this is because I myself am male ... but 
if so, then it's interesting that I completely failed to spot 
this "cliché of male American humor." (Not that I disagree: 
satirizing feminism _is_ just that.) I found nothing funny about
Trivigaunti culture; I found it an interesting (if less than 
100% successful) attempt to create a new human culture by taking
an existing culture -- a sort of generic "Islamic culture," to
be sure -- and inverting one of its basic donnés, the social and
religious hierarchy of male and female. 

Nonetheless, I do find Trivigaunte satirical -- but of extreme 
patriarchalism/male-dominant sexism, not of feminism. 

To be specific, I think Trivigaunti culture satirizes the more 
ludicrous claims of male dominance, which perhaps do not have 
their full charge of stupidity when put before us because we 
are accustomed to seeing them put forth seriously, regain that 
charge when reversed in this way: much the way Swift's Hounyhynms 
(or however you spell it) satirize the claimes for human dominance.

The odd thing is that I am not at all sure that Wolfe intended 
such a satire.

*****

I don't think, however, that Wolfe intends satire on the other
cultures he uses as templates in the Long/Short Sun books. I think 
he uses Indian and Italian -- and Dutch and Hispanic -- cultures 
as templates, but does not intend any criticism, satirical or 
otherwise, of any of these cultures. One could, perhaps, argue that 
he was too lazy to create "new" cultures; one could, on the other 
hand, claim that he was making a point about there being a limited 
set of cultural "types" into which humans will fall again and again. 
I don't have an opinion as between the two: but for the claim of 
"satire" to be sustained, I think you'd have to point out how (say) 
Wolfe uses satiric tactics in the culture of Gaon to point out the
flaws of "real" Indian culture. 

In fact, I think that all the cultures depicted on Blue -- Gaonese,
Grandecivitan, Dorpish, and New Vironese -- _are_ satirical, in a
sense, but not of the human cultures on which they are patterned.
Rather, all of them seem, to me, to use the rhetoric of satire, in
a non-humorous mode, to point up general issues about the reasons
why human societies in general fail to be humane. This is most 
blatantly obvious in New Viron and Dorp -- which is, perhaps, why 
you don't mention Dutch and Hispanic culture as targets for satire?
-- but the roots of war and unrest in Gaon and the Grandecivitan
colony towns are as universal as the corruption of Dorp and the
strong-man-ism of New Viron.

Every day a new adventure, every day the same

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From: Alice K. Turner <aturner6 at nyc.rr.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 14:37:00 +0000

A thoughtful answer to a rather dashed-off statement.

Alga wrote of the

>>The full exception is Trivigaunte.<<

Actually, I agree; I was using "satirical" carelessly.

-snip

(or however you spell it) satirize the claimes for human dominance.<<

Well, Viron doesn't seem to me especially male-dominated, not the way that
Trivigaunte is female-dominated, at least on a street level (behind the
scenes, or under the lake, yes, and of course New Viron--but that is another
story). Let me see what you're saying--by putting forth a militant female
society, complete with the requisite lesbian officers, GW is satirizing
males rather than females? Hmm. Put it in cinematic terms: who would you, in
the audience, think was being satirized? OtOH, I don't think it is a nasty
or pointed satire; I think, as you say, that it is a genuine exploration,
but that he had some manly fun with it. Baum had fun with General Jinjur and
her army too--but then nearly everything in Baum's Oz is female-dominated,
so one of the jokes is that there is no "patriarchy" to attack.

>>The odd thing is that I am not at all sure that Wolfe intended
such a satire.<<

I'm not sure of your context: satire of men or of women? I think for sure he
intended to satirize women, but I would agree that the satire of men that
you find implicit (and that I don't disagree with) may have escaped him.
(And I think he intended General Mint to be a hero in every way--though with
a tad of affectionate condescension.)

*****

flaws of "real" Indian culture. <<

Here, I really was being careless. But so was he.The laziness annoyed me,
also the failure, except in silly ways (like Pig's embarrassing accent). to
make any real reference to these cultures. Indian culture was nonexistent
except on the most cliched level (a harem, gorblimey); Italian culture
lacked even that.

strong-man-ism of New Viron.<<

I didn't mention Dutch and Hispanic because they slipped my mind as more
peripheral. Yes, I think you are correct about the intent, but the execution
seems obvious, superficial and two-dimensional to me, not nearly as
interesting as the inhumi-human-Neighbor situation, and not as illuminating
of the human condition either. In short, I became bored and highly critical
of the cardboard aspects of this thread in the third book in particular. But
in general, I agree with you about the use of "satirical," and stand
corrected.

-alga

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