{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3363", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3363, "subject": "arcologies like mountains", "messages": 13, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-07-16T23:44:27+00:00", "last": "2002-07-18T16:14:26+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-16T23:44:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Blattid wrote:\nThe 97 Kyear figure is _very_ debateable, and I for one hold it to be\ncompletely implausible ... we're talking a sufficient amount of time\nso that the ruins of ancient human civilizations have been uplifted in\nthe bodies of new mountains (which, of course, are then carved into the\nfigures of Urth's vain rulers). That doesn't happen in less than multiple\nmillions of years." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh dear, back to this chestnut.\n\nYes, the 97 Kyear figure is _very_ debateable. (For all sorts of reasons.\nLet a thousand timelines bloom!)\n\nBut, as far as I am concerned, so is the notion that the \"mountains\" are\nnatural (especially the single cliff that is being referred to here,\nhowever obliquely). I'm sure anyone who has read Olaf Stapledon can\ninstantly recall the supercities like continental coral reefs that sprout\nup in superscience civilizations -- indeed, they are rather puny compared\nwith Asimov's \"full metal planet\" of Trantor. The concept is rather a\nstaple of sf, and iirc, the brown book says that non-humans built vast\ncities like \"banks of cloud\" (note scale) and like \"skeletons of dragons\"\n(note fossil imagery) on Urth after the zenith of the Empire.\n\nAs for \"multiple millions,\" Wolfe has written, more than once, iirc, that\nit is \"perhaps\" one million years distant (which I have always taken as an\nouter limit rather than an inner limit, because of the qualifier). FWIW.\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSIRIUS FICTION\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\nLexicon Urthus out of print!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-17T09:45:51+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 17/07/2002 00:44:27 Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nBlattid wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The 97 Kyear figure is _very_ debateable, and I for one hold it to be\ncompletely implausible ... we're talking a sufficient amount of time\nso that the ruins of ancient human civilizations have been uplifted in\nthe bodies of new mountains (which, of course, are then carved into the\nfigures of Urth's vain rulers). That doesn't happen in less than\nmultiple\nmillions of years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh dear, back to this chestnut.\n\nYes, the 97 Kyear figure is _very_ debateable. (For all sorts of\nreasons.\nLet a thousand timelines bloom!)\n\nBut, as far as I am concerned, so is the notion that the \"mountains\" are\nnatural (especially the single cliff that is being referred to here,\nhowever obliquely). I'm sure anyone who has read Olaf Stapledon can\ninstantly recall the supercities like continental coral reefs that sprout\nup in superscience civilizations -- indeed, they are rather puny compared\nwith Asimov's \"full metal planet\" of Trantor. The concept is rather a\nstaple of sf, and iirc, the brown book says that non-humans built vast\ncities like \"banks of cloud\" (note scale) and like \"skeletons of dragons\"\n(note fossil imagery) on Urth after the zenith of the Empire.\n\nAs for \"multiple millions,\" Wolfe has written, more than once, iirc, that\nit is \"perhaps\" one million years distant (which I have always taken as\nan\nouter limit rather than an inner limit, because of the qualifier). FWIW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The single cliff I might have swallowed. But there is more than that.\n\nAs Severian travels north he comes to new mountains, sharp, uncarved\n(which also touches upon the time between Typhon and tBotNS). The raising\nof new mountain ranges by conscious intervention rather than eon-long\ntechtonic activity would have been an event of staggeraing magnitude to\nrival the coming of the New Sun itself. The lack of mention of such an\nevent could be allowed but set against it is the long continuity (of\ndecline, to be sure) implied in the whole atmosphere of the Commonwealth.\n\nYeuch, I just don't believe it.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-17T13:50:15+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew wrote:\nAs Severian travels north he comes to new mountains, sharp, uncarved\n(which also touches upon the time between Typhon and tBotNS)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nope, not in the text I read. If you can find it again, please tell.\n(Perhaps you are mistakenly thinking of URTH and the era of Apu Punchau.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The raising\nof new mountain ranges by conscious intervention rather than eon-long\ntechtonic activity would have been an event of staggeraing magnitude to\nrival the coming of the New Sun itself. The lack of mention of such an\nevent could be allowed but set against it is the long continuity (of\ndecline, to be sure) implied in the whole atmosphere of the Commonwealth.\n\nYeuch, I just don't believe it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You don't have to believe it. There are plenty of readers who believe, for\nexample, that the Old Sun is dying of natural causes; or that Lune's orbit\nis a natural function of time rather than engineering; or that all those\nweird animals evolved on Urth (implying evolutionary time scales); etc.\n(Everyone has their own mix and match.)\n\nIt seems to me that there are many such cases of misdirection in the text\nwhere things once seem very big and then shrink down.\n\nFor the rest: As a matter of fact, I have considered in the past how\nartificial continent raising might be a requirement, if only to allow a\ncertain continent to sink under the waves during a global deluge and not\ncome up again when the high waters retreat.\n\nBut what I was talking about in this case was not whole continents, but\nrather mountain ranges. Of supercities. Decayed into gigantic tells.\n\nAs for the mine at Saltus: well, urk -- do you believe that excavations of\nRoman cities prove that they were in place a million years ago? Probably\nnot.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-17T14:24:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 17/07/2002 14:50:15 Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nMatthew wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As Severian travels north he comes to new mountains, sharp, uncarved\n(which also touches upon the time between Typhon and tBotNS)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nope, not in the text I read. If you can find it again, please tell.\n(Perhaps you are mistakenly thinking of URTH and the era of Apu Punchau.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps... vide below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The raising\nof new mountain ranges by conscious intervention rather than eon-long\ntechtonic activity would have been an event of staggeraing magnitude to\nrival the coming of the New Sun itself. The lack of mention of such an\nevent could be allowed but set against it is the long continuity (of\ndecline, to be sure) implied in the whole atmosphere of the\nCommonwealth.\n\nYeuch, I just don't believe it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You don't have to believe it. There are plenty of readers who believe,\nfor\nexample, that the Old Sun is dying of natural causes; or that Lune's\norbit\nis a natural function of time rather than engineering; or that all those\nweird animals evolved on Urth (implying evolutionary time scales); etc.\n(Everyone has their own mix and match.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem is that everyone likes to be \"right\". The chances of being so\nare diminished if one cannot persuade the consensus to ones point of view.\n ;-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It seems to me that there are many such cases of misdirection in the text\nwhere things once seem very big and then shrink down.\n\nFor the rest: As a matter of fact, I have considered in the past how\nartificial continent raising might be a requirement, if only to allow a\ncertain continent to sink under the waves during a global deluge and not\ncome up again when the high waters retreat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're alluding to the coming of the New Sun? There's a point there;\neither it's too much or not enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But what I was talking about in this case was not whole continents, but\nrather mountain ranges. Of supercities. Decayed into gigantic tells." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One might also consider the usual belief that the Commonwealth is in South\nAmerica - and the chnages required to make that fit the geography Severian\ntravels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for the mine at Saltus: well, urk -- do you believe that excavations\nof\nRoman cities prove that they were in place a million years ago? Probably\nnot." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right. I don't. ;-)\n\nBut the point I think was made about the mines is that they are not mining\nthe crust for raw materials (ores) as we would understand it but mining\nthe detrius of the past - that's unlikely to be less than many many times\nwhat we'd find today in the whole archological deposit between the Iron\nAge and now.\n\nHowever memory does play tricks. I was going to finish the current light\nreading (Tad William's Memory, Sorrw, Thorn), enjoy my new new one\n(Ricardo Pinto's sequel to The Chosen) and then re-read tBotNS - which is\nover due. When I get home I might reconsider those priorities and get\nback to you on this in a few weeks time.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-07-17T15:52:21+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm inclined toward short-timeline theories myself - simply because I don't\nthink beyond a maximum of a million years in the future, the characters\ncould credibly be considered human. Although a review of the archives\nreveals a wealth of debate on this subject, I wasn't on the list then. ;-)\nSo I'll offer my pennies:\nMantis wrote:\nAs for the mine at Saltus: well, urk -- do you believe that excavations of\nRoman cities prove that they were in place a million years ago? Probably\nnot.\nMatthew Malthouse wrote:\nBut the point I think was made about the mines is that they are not mining\nthe crust for raw materials (ores) as we would understand it but mining\nthe detrius of the past - that's unlikely to be less than many many times\nwhat we'd find today in the whole archological deposit between the Iron\nAge and now.\nFrom the beginning of the Bronze Age til now - 5000 years --- the currently\navailable technologically-advanced archeological artifacts available for us\nto \"mine\", is still impressive.\nImagine that extended to 100,000 years - mostly encompassing the output of\nartifacts since the first industrial revolution a mere 250 years ago ---\nwell, one could probably mine for generations in the New Jersey garbage\ndumps even if we shut them down today.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-17T16:17:12+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh dear, back to this chestnut." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More of a walnut, I think. A hard nut to crack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let a thousand timelines bloom!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bravo!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But, as far as I am concerned, so is the notion that the \n\"mountains\" are natural (especially the single cliff that\nis being referred to here, however obliquely). " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was not referring to the single cliff; others have mentioned\nthe mines of Saltus, (which are pretty darn deep down), the\nnewer mountains ... \n\n... and perhaps the most important piece of evidence, which \nI didn't cite because I'm not prepared to go and reread the \nwhole darn thing right now looking for one sentence: but ... \nsomewhere in there it's mentioned that Urth's core has cooled\nsolid. And that is not going to happen in the next 97K years,\nor the next million." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sure anyone who has read Olaf Stapledon can instantly recall\nthe supercities like continental coral reefs that sprout up in\nsuperscience civilizations -- indeed, they are rather puny compared\nwith Asimov's \"full metal planet\" of Trantor. The concept is rather\na staple of sf, " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, yeah (though it's not a full metal planet; it's a planet\nwith a full metal jacket ... later, after some of the metal has\nbeen stripmined, people can farm on Trantor). And my own favorite\nexamples of this, the plastic-coated planet of Bunch's \"Moderan\"\nand the continental cities of Wingrove's \"Chung Kuo.\" Posdef a\nknown and negotiable trope of the stfnal ecology: I grant that\nreadily. (Indeed, the Autarch's palace may be an example.)\n\nStill: while I have no textual proof of this, in my first reading\nof tSotL, and since, I didn't read the cliff that way at all --\na standard SF trope _did_ enter my mind, but the emblematic\nexample of the trope was the \"apartment mine\" in the original\nfilm of PLANET OF THE APES. (Where, granted, it is unlikely that\n\"millions\" of years have passed...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and iirc, the brown book says that non-humans built vast cities\nlike \"banks of cloud\" (note scale) and like \"skeletons of\ndragons\" (note fossil imagery) on Urth after the zenith of the Empire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...and? I don't imagine you'll disagree if I say that the stories in \n\"Wonders\" are _not_, in general, to be taken as historically factual\n(in the universe of the discourse). Aside from the blatantly poetic\nlanguage, I also expect these descriptions to be, well, exaggerated." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As for \"multiple millions,\" Wolfe has written, more than once, iirc, that\nit is \"perhaps\" one million years distant (which I have always taken as an\nouter limit rather than an inner limit, because of the qualifier). FWIW." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And I have always taken it as typical Lupine vupinity ... \"perhaps one \nmillion years\" doesn't actually commit Wolfe to anything.\n\n\n--Dan'l\n\nBluebird, what do you see? " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-17T16:20:38+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mantis quoted Matthew..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As Severian travels north he comes to new mountains, sharp, uncarved\n(which also touches upon the time between Typhon and tBotNS)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nope, not in the text I read. If you can find it again, please tell.\n(Perhaps you are mistakenly thinking of URTH and the era of \nApu Punchau.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's certainly what I was thinking of; and in context, I'm \npretty darn sure that those are the same mountains that Typhon and\ncompany later carve into their effigies." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David A Baird", "address": "david.baird at skynet.be" }, "date": "2002-07-17T16:44:53+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, I also remember reading the bit about the Urth's core cooling. Also, the\nHieros/Hierogrammates/Hierodules are creations from Urths past and now they\nwant the new sun so that Urth can regain it's glory and then in turn\nrecreate them again. 100K years seems too few for such a cycle." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-17T14:12:32+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\" \nOh dear, back to this chestnut." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More of a walnut, I think. A hard nut to crack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Let a thousand timelines bloom!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bravo indeed.\n\nI think we simply have to face the fact that the poetic elements of the\n\"Dying Earth\" which Wolfe put in can not be rigorously justified in SF\nterms.\n\nThe book is really about an Earth which is so old the Sun is dying. (Anyone\nelse here think one root is the dying universe of Charn in the Narnia\nstories?)\n\nAll the stuff about a black hole causing it has been shoehorned in\nafterwards, and the \"poetic\" elements do not really make scientific sense.\nDeal with it.\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Crush", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-07-17T18:41:07+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David A Baird said:\n\n\n... the Hieros/Hierogrammates/Hierodules are creations from Urths past and\nnow they\nwant the new sun so that Urth can regain it's glory and then in turn\nrecreate them again. 100K years seems too few for such a cycle.\n\n\n\nWait a minute. I don't think I'm understanding this point. What possible\nlimitations of time could the Hieros offer? They go backwards in Time, go\noutside of Time, drop in on Time. I presumed that Hieros were created in a\nfuture far beyond the Age of the BothNS." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-17T18:53:17+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crush quoted David and said..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "... the Hieros/Hierogrammates/Hierodules are creations from \nUrths past and now they want the new sun so that Urth can\nregain it's glory and then in turn recreate them again. 100K\nyears seems too few for such a cycle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait a minute. I don't think I'm understanding this point. \nWhat possible limitations of time could the Hieros offer?\nThey go backwards in Time, go outside of Time, drop in on\nTime. I presumed that Hieros were created in a future far\nbeyond the Age of the BothNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, while you're right that the Hieros don't help us set up \nany kind of time limits, it's a _little_ more complicated than\nthat -- it's established in UotNS that the Hieros are from an\n\"earlier\" cycle of the universe. If there is any meaningful\ntime-relationship at all (and I question this, since \"time\"\nis only a meaningful measurement within a given spacetime),\nit's to be measured in Sagans of years.\n\nI would while away the hours smoking all the flowers and shooting up the\nrain" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David A Baird", "address": "david.baird at skynet.be" }, "date": "2002-07-17T19:23:12+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there's no time limitation to the Hieros activity then why do they rely\non Urth regaining it's power?\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Crush\" \nTo: \nSent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 8:41 PM\nSubject: RE: (urth) arcologies like mountains\nDavid A Baird said:\n\n\n... the Hieros/Hierogrammates/Hierodules are creations from Urths past and\nnow they\nwant the new sun so that Urth can regain it's glory and then in turn\nrecreate them again. 100K years seems too few for such a cycle.\n\n\n\nWait a minute. I don't think I'm understanding this point. What possible\nlimitations of time could the Hieros offer? They go backwards in Time, go\noutside of Time, drop in on Time. I presumed that Hieros were created in a\nfuture far beyond the Age of the BothNS.\n\n\n\n--" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-07-18T16:14:26+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) arcologies like mountains", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David A Baird said:\n... the Hieros/Hierogrammates/Hierodules are creations from Urths past and\nnow they want the new sun so that Urth can regain it's glory and then in\nturn recreate them again. 100K years seems too few for such a cycle.\n\nCrush asked:\nWait a minute. I don't think I'm understanding this point. What possible\nlimitations of time could the Hieros offer? They go backwards in Time, go\noutside of Time, drop in on Time. I presumed that Hieros were created in a\nfuture far beyond the Age of the BothNS.\n\nDavid responded:\nIf there's no time limitation to the Hieros activity then why do they rely\non Urth regaining its power?\n\nNow Crush says:\nBecause...oh wait... now I understand your timeline. You are saying that the\nHieros are created between our time and Severian's and that they are backing\nthe new Sun in order to have themselves created a second time around? Right?\n\nThat's not the way I read tUotNS. My recollection of my reading was that\ntheir ORIGINAL creation had been brought about by beings created by\nhumankind AFTER the New Sun's advent, AND that those beings would *never* be\ncreated in the Future where the Dying Sun continues to decline. Dan'l has\noffered another fold, saying that the Hieros are created during a previous\nuniverse-cycle - I'll have to re-read the book I guess. But even so, all\nthis takes place (relatively speaking) AFTER the advent of the New Sun.\n\nHence, the Hieros are not goosing the Urth toward the New Sun just to\nreplicate themselves in the future. They are ensuring their own original\ncreation. And with Dan'l,s twist the possibility arises that THEIR eventual\ncreation is necessary for humanity's development (and the Hiero's creation,\netc.).\n\nTwisted enough for ya?\n--Crush" } ] } ] }