Those Orwellian Ascians

The Urth list — 3 messages, 3 voices, 28 Jul 2002
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3377

Michael Andre-Driussi29 Jul 2002, 03:15original
I believe it was blattid who fairly recently complained that he did not grok how or why some people keep saying that the Ascians are "Orwellian" with their Correct Thought when it is clearly and only Mao's little red book. Right. Not to take away anything from the Mao's little red book angle at all, because it is there. OTOH, to the best of my knowledge, even at the height of the personality cult the Chinese did not make a practice of speaking exclusively in quotes from the little red book. So the historical context of the little red book does not contain the aspect of Approved Texts/Correct Thought. Orwell's novel, NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, has "Newspeak," which is a state-created lexicon of ever simplified words, standardized grammer, etc., that was expected to replace English by 2050. IIRC, Symes boasts that the Party will eliminate the orgasm, because once the word is vaporized, it will no longer exist (the Party gains tremendous strength from sublimated sexual drives among the members -- so the Party has made great progress in eliminating the physical sensation that the word referrs to). IIRC, "Ingsoc," the philosophy/mindset of citizens, is engendered by Newspeak; "Oldthink" is all that pre-revolutionary stuff (Capitalism, etc.); not to mention "thoughtcrime." And then there is the Thought Police (emphasis on "thought" to show linkage to philosophy of Ingsoc in this case). So it seems to me that "Correct Thought," while sounding nicely Maoist, actually leads to a rich association with Orwell's novel: Insoc = Correct Thought; Newspeak (in 2050) = Approved Texts; etc. I think that the "mirror" is being held up, not to Mao's China, but to Orwell's Oceania. By having the Ascians saddled with a form of Newspeak, Gene Wolfe is able to show that even then they are capable of telling stories and other frivolities -- thus the Party has not in fact "vaporized the orgasm," as it were: the human spirit finds ways around it. (Not that this is necessarily a direct criticism of Orwell by Wolfe: Orwell, after all, does not say the Party is able to do this thing, only that it is a goal.) I hope this answers the complaint. =mantis=
Josh Geller29 Jul 2002, 03:39original

↳ follows, by subject match Michael Andre-Driussi

3 quoted lines
On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote: So it seems to me that "Correct Thought," while sounding nicely Maoist, actually leads to a rich association with Orwell's novel: Insoc = Correct Thought; Newspeak (in 2050) = Approved Texts; etc.
I think that the "mirror" is being held up, not to Mao's China, but to Orwell's Oceania.
And, in fact, Oceania is Great Britain/America in the 1984 world, and Ascia is North America to the Commonwealth's South America on Urth. .
Andy Robertson28 Jul 2002, 09:43original

↳ follows, by subject match Josh Geller

----- Original Message -----
3 quoted lines
From: "Michael Andre-Driussi" <mantis at siriusfiction.com> Orwell's novel, NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, has "Newspeak," which is a state-created lexicon of ever simplified words, standardized grammer, etc., that was expected to replace English by 2050.
Can any educated person be ignorant of this? I think it was I who bought up the Orwell reference: but I assumed everyone knew about Newspeak. :-) hartshorn

Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.