{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3377", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3377, "subject": "Those Orwellian Ascians", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-07-28T09:43:02+00:00", "last": "2002-07-29T03:39:11+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-07-29T03:15:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Those Orwellian Ascians", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe it was blattid who fairly recently complained that he did not\ngrok how or why some people keep saying that the Ascians are \"Orwellian\"\nwith their Correct Thought when it is clearly and only Mao's little red\nbook.\n\nRight. Not to take away anything from the Mao's little red book angle at\nall, because it is there.\n\nOTOH, to the best of my knowledge, even at the height of the personality\ncult the Chinese did not make a practice of speaking exclusively in quotes\nfrom the little red book. So the historical context of the little red book\ndoes not contain the aspect of Approved Texts/Correct Thought.\n\nOrwell's novel, NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, has \"Newspeak,\" which is a\nstate-created lexicon of ever simplified words, standardized grammer, etc.,\nthat was expected to replace English by 2050. IIRC, Symes boasts that the\nParty will eliminate the orgasm, because once the word is vaporized, it\nwill no longer exist (the Party gains tremendous strength from sublimated\nsexual drives among the members -- so the Party has made great progress in\neliminating the physical sensation that the word referrs to). IIRC,\n\"Ingsoc,\" the philosophy/mindset of citizens, is engendered by Newspeak;\n\"Oldthink\" is all that pre-revolutionary stuff (Capitalism, etc.); not to\nmention \"thoughtcrime.\" And then there is the Thought Police (emphasis on\n\"thought\" to show linkage to philosophy of Ingsoc in this case).\n\nSo it seems to me that \"Correct Thought,\" while sounding nicely Maoist,\nactually leads to a rich association with Orwell's novel: Insoc = Correct\nThought; Newspeak (in 2050) = Approved Texts; etc.\n\nI think that the \"mirror\" is being held up, not to Mao's China, but to\nOrwell's Oceania. By having the Ascians saddled with a form of Newspeak,\nGene Wolfe is able to show that even then they are capable of telling\nstories and other frivolities -- thus the Party has not in fact \"vaporized\nthe orgasm,\" as it were: the human spirit finds ways around it. (Not that\nthis is necessarily a direct criticism of Orwell by Wolfe: Orwell, after\nall, does not say the Party is able to do this thing, only that it is a\ngoal.)\n\nI hope this answers the complaint.\n\n=mantis=" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Josh Geller", "address": "dclxvi at dclxvi.best.vwh.net" }, "date": "2002-07-29T03:39:11+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Those Orwellian Ascians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Michael Andre-Driussi wrote:\nSo it seems to me that \"Correct Thought,\" while sounding nicely Maoist,\nactually leads to a rich association with Orwell's novel: Insoc = Correct\nThought; Newspeak (in 2050) = Approved Texts; etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that the \"mirror\" is being held up, not to Mao's China, but to\nOrwell's Oceania." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And, in fact, Oceania is Great Britain/America in the 1984 world, and\nAscia is North America to the Commonwealth's South America on Urth.\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-28T09:43:02+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Those Orwellian Ascians", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Michael Andre-Driussi\" \n\nOrwell's novel, NINETEEN EIGHTY-FOUR, has \"Newspeak,\" which is a\nstate-created lexicon of ever simplified words, standardized grammer,\netc.,\nthat was expected to replace English by 2050." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Can any educated person be ignorant of this?\n\nI think it was I who bought up the Orwell reference: but I assumed everyone\nknew about Newspeak. :-)\n\n\n hartshorn" } ] } ] }