Subject: (urth) Severian's Daughter & Thais

From: James Jordan <jbjordan4 at cox.net>
Date: Mon, 29 Jul 2002 15:36:50 +0000

At 06:50 PM 7/27/2002 -0700, you wrote:

>Well, as I glance back over UTNS, it seems unlikely
>that Thais could be Severian's kid by Dorcas.  The
>last he saw of her was a decade or so before leaving
>to get the New Sun, and he returns several more
>decades latter, if poor shriveled Valaria is any
>indication.  Thais is in Severian's estimation "fairly
>young", so perhaps a grandchild?
>J

         Hmmm. Well, I've always thought Severian was his own grandfather 
somehow, and that was the outcome of his relation with Dorcas. I can't 
recall how I came up with that -- maybe it was just the general ambience of 
the novels that led me to it. But if that's right, it would seem to 
eliminate Thais from direct consideration. Set me straight, someone!
         Alga's contribution on Thais is interesting. THE Ship is clearly 
some kind of image of the Church, moving through of history, ascending to 
"heaven," bringing the "new sun," etc. So, what about other ships? Do they 
have symbolic meaning? One would think so, this being Wolfe and all. Is 
Thais the sailor a replay of the converted Thais the Saint, with her being 
a sailor on a ship a replay of her work in the church/convent?
         One of Severian's youthful buddies (whose name I cannot call up at 
the moment; Eata?) is captain of the ship, iirc. (I'm 15 years removed from 
my second reading; gotta read'em again!) Is he Peter to Severian's 
"Christ"? Or at least a local pastor of a small ship linked to The Ship 
symbolically? Is this worth an investigation?
         (For those who don't know, Church as Noah's Ark and Ship is common 
coin of symbolism. The interior of a church is called a "nave.")

Nutria

Nutria

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Tue, 30 Jul 2002 17:20:55 +0000

>eliminate Thais from direct consideration. Set me straight, someone!

If you have long held the Sev-is-his-own-grandpa theory, just ignore this.
But if you picked up the notion from this list about three years ago, then
the fault is mine. I posted just such a theory then. I say "fault" because
the theory was based on the assumption that there was a baby in the basket
Dorcas had with her when Sev last saw her, that the baby was hers, and Sev
was the father. In the normal course of things, that just isn't possible.
There just wasn't enough time between Sev's first encounter with her (late
winter/early spring) and when he saw the basket (late summer/early autumn)
for them to have produced a baby.

My apologies if I led anyone astray. Of course Sev might otherwise be his
own grandpa, but my theory was wrong.

-Roy

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