{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3385", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3385, "subject": "Another Avern for you", "messages": 9, "voices": 6, "first": "2002-07-29T22:07:14+00:00", "last": "2002-08-01T15:41:55+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-29T22:07:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 05:17 PM 7/29/2002 -0400, you wrote:\nGreat post. Great title. Great discussion.\n\nMaybe Ascia is what you get when Mao reads Orwell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though the discussion is fun, I do think that's all it is. Any writer knows \nOrwell and Mao and thought control; Wolfe surely knows Plato's hostility to \nstory and myth. Attempts by extreme tyrants to cut people off from their \npasts, and from story, narrative, and myth, are pretty ... well ... \ntimeless! (Typhon did not go so far.) Trying to go much beyond this and \nsay, \"Wolfe is building on Mao, not Orwell\" etc. strikes me as \noverinterpretation -- though we can do it here for fun, planting averns -- \nunless I'm missing something significant.\n Wolfe's \"point\" is that story and narrative are inescapable \naspects of human life in the real world, and that they will break through \nsomehow even in the most mathematically \"timeless\" and philosophical \ncultures that tyrants can ever attempt. Attempts to freeze history and \neliminate story are fruitless. Homer and the Bible win! Plato and \nPythagoras (seventeen) lose!\n I'm more inclined to see this as a \"Christian narrative view of \nreality\" defeating a \"Philosophical-gnostic timeless mathematical attempt \nto control reality.\"\n But for Wolfe's \"sources,\" well, it's all of the above, lupinated.\n Yet, another thought also: The Marxist motif in connection with \nthe Ascians is obvious, and as I say I don't think we need to try and \npinpoint it to Mao or anyone else. But though \"Ascian\" sounds like \"Asian,\" \nin addition to that allusion it actually means \"shadowless.\" Shadowless, \ndirectly under the sun, seems to me a good symbol for a timeless \nphilosophical worldview. The shadows, however, are inescapable, as is \nnarrative and story. Stories are shadows cast by persons, with the sun \nbehind them, so to speak. \"Loyal's\" story isn't much, but it's still a \nstory. Even with the sun directly overhead, you have a little shadow. \n(Plato does not like shadows; he wants us out of the cave.)\n Wolfe takes up shadows in \"A Solar Labyrinth\" (which came first?), \nand I wonder how much light (or shadow) that tale casts on the Ascians and \nLoyal. The shadows are cast by various objects, and block approach to the \ntrue center. A nice image, if intended by Wolfe (?), of how wrong \nnarratives and culture myths mislead people into wrong patterns of life and \nthought. Yet some of the shifting shadow-narratives-myths move people \ngradually to the center.\n Anyway, that's an avern from me, to add to the thousands!\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-07-30T18:45:25+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Another avern for you\", said Agilus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n\n... \"Ascian\" ... actually means \"shadowless.\"\nShadowless, directly under the sun, seems to\nme a good symbol for a timeless philosophical\nworldview." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm. I thought they were \"shadowless\" because they were in continuous dark?\nAlthough, no doubt they interpreted it the other way. But the Ascians are\nunder the control Erebus (Erebus according to Hesiod is the \"darkness of\nTartaros\")\n\nSeverian is the New Sun, the roses (which are sun symbols) represent life,\nnenuphars whose roots extend to the darkness of the water represent death.\n\nSurely darkness is ironically the intended implication of the name \"Ascian\".\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Bratt Ian", "address": "ian.bratt at colorado.edu" }, "date": "2002-07-30T19:23:03+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, 30 Jul 2002, Crush wrote:\nHmmm. I thought they were \"shadowless\" because they were in continuous dark?\nAlthough, no doubt they interpreted it the other way. But the Ascians are\nunder the control Erebus (Erebus according to Hesiod is the \"darkness of\nTartaros\")\n\nSeverian is the New Sun, the roses (which are sun symbols) represent life,\nnenuphars whose roots extend to the darkness of the water represent death.\n\nSurely darkness is ironically the intended implication of the name \"Ascian\".\n\n-- Crush" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Interesting idea. I've always thought they were \"shadowless\" because of\ntheir lack of individuality. If we take the route that to have a shadow\nis to have a soul (Vampires have no reflection) and to have a soul is to\nbe human, then the Ascians have lost what makes them human. In this\ncase, I've always considered that to be their individuality. Although I\nfind the darkness theory reasonable and even somewhat similar.\n\n-Ian" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-07-31T14:51:21+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:45 PM 7/30/2002 -0500, you wrote:\n\"Another avern for you\", said Agilus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Nutria wrote:\n\n... \"Ascian\" ... actually means \"shadowless.\"\nShadowless, directly under the sun, seems to\nme a good symbol for a timeless philosophical\nworldview." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hmmm. I thought they were \"shadowless\" because they were in continuous dark?\nAlthough, no doubt they interpreted it the other way. But the Ascians are\nunder the control Erebus (Erebus according to Hesiod is the \"darkness of\nTartaros\")" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Interesting point. But doesn't the text make is clear that they \nare from the equator, and directly under the sun, and that is the basic \nmeaning of Ascian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian is the New Sun, the roses (which are sun symbols) represent life,\nnenuphars whose roots extend to the darkness of the water represent death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Absolutely. I would see this as true versus false sun.\n But I'm certainly open to correction.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-07-31T16:01:06+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As regards the Ascians, Patera Nutria inscribed:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Interesting point. But doesn't the text make is clear that they \nare from the equator, and directly under the sun, and that is \nthe basic meaning of Ascian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, the text makes clear that they are from _north_ of \nthe equator (or \"waist of the Urth\"), and that this is a false\nbelief, a folk-etymology common among the people of the \nCommonwealth. The real reason they are \"shadowless\" is not \ngiven ... but note the title of the first volume of tBotNS.\n\nbaby's on fire, better throw her in the water" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-07-31T16:41:20+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Blattid said:\nThe real reason they are \"shadowless\" is not\ngiven ... but note the title of the first volume of tBotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC In \"Castle of the Otter\" Wolfe says that a shadow implies the sun\nbecause the sun *stands behind* (as in, supports, affirms, etc) the one that\ncasts a shadow. Also, that the \"shadow of the torturer\" represents death\nwhen he performs an execution because he blots out the sun.\n\nIt would have been cool if the Ascians *were* from the equator. It would\nhave been very Lupine if they had been. I'm sure Wolfe would kick himself\nthat he didn't think of it at the time.\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-07-31T16:57:10+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On 31/07/2002 15:51:21 James Jordan wrote:\n[Ascians]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Interesting point. But doesn't the text make is clear that they\nare from the equator, and directly under the sun, and that is the basic\nmeaning of Ascian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Byond the waist of the world surely means the other side of the equator?\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-08-01T02:08:10+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 7/31/02 11:01 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:\nActually, the text makes clear that they are from _north_ of\nthe equator (or \"waist of the Urth\"), and that this is a false\nbelief, a folk-etymology common among the people of the\nCommonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it's not a \"folk-etymology\" in the sense of being an incorrect\netymology; it's a true etymology based upon a false belief (cf. Ash's\nremarks in TCotA, chap. 16, pp. 121-2 of Timescape ed.)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The real reason they are \"shadowless\" is not\ngiven ... but note the title of the first volume of tBotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ash goes on to say \"In a fable made in the earliest morning of our race, a\nman sold his shadow and found himself driven out everywhere he went. No one\nwould believe that he was human.\" Earlier, Ava told Severian that \"Ascians\nare not human.\" (TCotA, chap. 10, p. 72).\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-08-01T15:41:55+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) Another Avern for you", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Blattid wrote:\nActually, the text makes clear that they are from _north_ of\nthe equator (or \"waist of the Urth\"), and that this is a false\nbelief, a folk-etymology common among the people of the\nCommonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam replied:\nWell, it's not a \"folk-etymology\" in the sense of being an incorrect\netymology; it's a true etymology based upon a false belief (cf. Ash's\nremarks in TCotA, chap. 16, pp. 121-2 of Timescape ed.)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it appears GW DID consider the Equator angle and used it as an excuse to\ngive the Ascians their name (which has symbolic implications although not\neveryone agrees (with me ;-D) about what the implications are)\n\n--Crush" } ] } ] }