{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3390", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3390, "subject": "The Ascian's Shadow", "messages": 10, "voices": 4, "first": "2002-08-01T10:11:02+00:00", "last": "2002-08-02T19:02:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-08-01T10:11:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't find the thread this subject came up in a day or two ago but I\nchanced upon the matter last evening.\n\nTCotA Ch 16. Ash is speaking to Severian:\n\n \"The men without shadows...\"\n\n \"You call your enemies Ascians, which of course is not what they call\nthemselves, because your fathers believed that they came from the waist of\nUrth, where the sun is precisely overhead at noon. The truth is that their\nhome is much farther north.\"\n\nAs an allusion to the shadow of the torturer it seems inapt or perhaps\nironic: the Ascians seem to have no lack of tortuers despite the\n\"perfection\" of the rule of the Group of Seventeen.\n\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-08-01T15:35:47+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Matthew malthouse wrote:\nAs an allusion to the shadow of the torturer it seems inapt or perhaps\nironic: the Ascians seem to have no lack of tortuers despite the\n\"perfection\" of the rule of the Group of Seventeen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is an -excellent-- point! Except the title is not \"The Shadow of **A**\nTorturer\", it is \"The Shadow of THE Torturer\".\n\nIs it \"The Sword of the Lictor\" where Severian describes the proper\nprocedure in a public execution as requiring that he cast his shadow on the\ncondemned (IIRC)? All Commonwealth torturers follow that ritual. All beings\non Urth cast shadows - even the Ascians and their torturers. Only for\nSeverian does his interposition before the Sun constitute a symbol.\n\n\"Shadows\" in tBotNS represent the NEW SUN and the new order and future it\nbrings. Only Severian is affirmed by the sun symbol and only he --the NEW\nSun-- in coming ordinally and chronologically after the old Sun, brings\ndeath (in his shadow) as well as life (ie. All the people killed in the\nDeluge). That is Erebus' and Abia's hold on the New Sun's enemies - that the\nNew Sun will destroy everything.\n\nSo.... The Ascians are shadowless. They repudiate the \"shadow\" (i.e. the\ndestruction and change) of the New Sun, thus they serve (i.e. are \"under\")\nErebus (the TOTAL Darkness of Death).\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-08-01T16:47:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew, you wrote:\nAs an allusion to the shadow of the torturer it seems inapt or perhaps\nironic: the Ascians seem to have no lack of tortuers despite the\n\"perfection\" of the rule of the Group of Seventeen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Correct ... as far as it goes.\n\nBut _the_ shadow of _the_ torturer (not _some_ shadow of _some_ torturer)\ndoes not fall upon them; they are not touched by the salvation Severian \nis to bring.\n\nSo much for universalism." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-08-02T00:20:47+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 8/1/02 11:47 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes at ddanehy at siebel.com wrote:\nBut _the_ shadow of _the_ torturer (not _some_ shadow of _some_ torturer)\ndoes not fall upon them; they are not touched by the salvation Severian\nis to bring.\n\nSo much for universalism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Neither are 99.9% of the Commonwealth's population. And do we know that no\nAscians survived? If a few people survived the destruction of the\nCommonwealth, isn't it probable that a few Ascians would also have survived?\nIn fact, wouldn't Erebus, being aware (as Volenta was not) of what the New\nSun's coming means, have prepared for it?\n\nOTOH, if \"the shadow of the torturer\" is the death and destruction Severian\nbrings, the Ascians certainly are touched by it.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Stephanides", "address": "adamsteph at earthlink.net" }, "date": "2002-08-02T00:20:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on 8/1/02 10:35 AM, James Wynn at crushtv at HotPOP.com wrote:\n\"Shadows\" in tBotNS represent the NEW SUN and the new order and future it\nbrings. Only Severian is affirmed by the sun symbol" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One of the Ascian's sayings also alludes to shadow imagery: \"Behind\neverything some further thing is found forever; thus the tree behind the\nbird, stone beneath soil, the sun behind Urth.\" (ch. XI; p. 80, Timescape,\ned.) This can't be an accident on Wolfe's part, though I don't know what\nits significance is.\n\nSome of the Ascian's other remarks also seem to have a wider significance:\n\n\"How are the hands nourished? By the blood. How does the blood reach the\nhands? By the veins. If the veins are closed, the hands will rot away,\"\n(Ibid.) which Foila interprets as a reference to roads; whether intentional\non the Ascian's part or not, this can be taken as a criticism of the\nAutarch's policy of closing the roads.\n\n\"[A] brave woman desires children, and not husbands.\" (ch. V, p. 33) Sure\nenough, very few of the women we meet in TBotS desire husbands; even Foila\ndoesn't seem that eager to marry, despite organizing the storytelling\ncontest herself.\n\nThe longish paragraph which Foila interprets as meaning that the stories by\nthe skill of their telling, not their content, may be Wolfe's ironic comment\non his own reception.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-08-02T10:20:54+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/08/2002 17:47:02 Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nMatthew, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As an allusion to the shadow of the torturer it seems inapt or perhaps\nironic: the Ascians seem to have no lack of tortuers despite the\n\"perfection\" of the rule of the Group of Seventeen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Correct ... as far as it goes.\n\nBut _the_ shadow of _the_ torturer (not _some_ shadow of _some_ torturer)\ndoes not fall upon them; they are not touched by the salvation Severian\nis to bring.\n\nSo much for universalism." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The coming of the New Sun and the cataclysm caused by it's unquiet arrival\ncan hardly be just for the Commonwealth. What \"salvation\" can Severian\nbring that would not touch the Ascians?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 01/08/2002 16:35:47 James Wynn wrote:\nSo.... The Ascians are shadowless. They repudiate the \"shadow\" (i.e. the\ndestruction and change) of the New Sun, thus they serve (i.e. are\n\"under\")\nErebus (the TOTAL Darkness of Death)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yet their repudiation avails nothing. They too live on Urth, will not one\nsurvive into Ushas?\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-08-02T10:56:33+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 02/08/2002 01:20:54 Adam Stephanides wrote:\non 8/1/02 10:35 AM, James Wynn at crushtv at HotPOP.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Shadows\" in tBotNS represent the NEW SUN and the new order and future\nit\nbrings. Only Severian is affirmed by the sun symbol" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "One of the Ascian's sayings also alludes to shadow imagery: \"Behind\neverything some further thing is found forever; thus the tree behind the\nbird, stone beneath soil, the sun behind Urth.\" (ch. XI; p. 80,\nTimescape,\ned.) This can't be an accident on Wolfe's part, though I don't know what\nits significance is.\n\nSome of the Ascian's other remarks also seem to have a wider\nsignificance:\n\n\"How are the hands nourished? By the blood. How does the blood reach\nthe\nhands? By the veins. If the veins are closed, the hands will rot away,\"\n(Ibid.) which Foila interprets as a reference to roads; whether\nintentional\non the Ascian's part or not, this can be taken as a criticism of the\nAutarch's policy of closing the roads." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be so. The Autarch in explaining to Severian says that the policy\nis bad, deliberately fostering stagnation. Yet the implication is that the\nAscian's progress is a chimera (it may be explicit, I haven't the book\nwith me today).\n\nThe Autarch speaks of human kind going again to the stars when it can\ncarry with it some \"wholeness\". The Ascian's progress will not achieve\nthis aim but I don't see how the stagnation of the Commonweatlth fosters\nit.\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-08-02T15:08:32+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 01/08/2002 16:35:47 James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So.... The Ascians are shadowless. They repudiate the \"shadow\" (i.e. the\ndestruction and change) of the New Sun, thus they serve (i.e. are\n\"under\")\nErebus (the TOTAL Darkness of Death)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Malthouse wrote:\nYet their repudiation avails nothing. They too live on Urth, will not one\nsurvive into Ushas?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. But they ARE in league with Erebus (\"the darkness of Death\" - that is\nthe literal definition of the word). The fact that the New Sun eventually\novercomes the darkness does change with whom they through their lot.\n\nAfter the Deluge, there is no more Ascia and the Ascians are no longer\n\"shadowless\". And if Erebus had won, there would be no New Sun and the\nConcilliator's title and *declared* destiny would have been academic.\n\nCrush\n\n----------------------------------------\nAnd now, ---> stuff I typed which I have determined are irrelevant to my\npoint:\n-----If I were to derive theology from everything in tBotNS - a mistake -\nthen I would say this rejects the posit that what each person believes his\nafterlife will be like is what it will be like (ala the 9-11 bombers are NOT\ncurrently being tended by 64 virgins). ----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-08-02T15:49:29+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\nThe fact that the New Sun eventually overcomes \nthe darkness does change with whom they through " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "their lot.\n\nOf course I meant \"does NOT change with whom they threw their lot\"\n\n-- Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "ddanehy at siebel.com" }, "date": "2002-08-02T19:02:13+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) The Ascian's Shadow", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I observed that " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But _the_ shadow of _the_ torturer (not _some_ shadow of _some_\ntorturer)\ndoes not fall upon them; they are not touched by the salvation Severian\nis to bring." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Neither are 99.9% of the Commonwealth's population. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, so much for universalism. But at least _some_ are." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And do we know that no Ascians survived? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mere survival is not the \"salvation\" I referred to; it is\nthe regeneration of humanity which (according to the Hieros)\nwill ultimately lead Urth-humans back to the stars. It \nbegins not with Severian's bringing the New Sun, but with\nhis ascending the throne (and, I think, its overt sign is\nhis abolishing torture)." } ] } ] }