{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3411", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3411, "subject": "More Musings on Peace", "messages": 3, "voices": 3, "first": "2002-08-19T02:30:16+00:00", "last": "2002-08-19T05:48:40+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "StoneOx17", "address": "stoneox17 at aol.com" }, "date": "2002-08-19T02:30:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) More Musings on Peace", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello,\n\nI have a few thoughts inspired by Robert Borski's recent essay on Peace. I \ndon't believe that Weer is the devil, but I do like the idea that uncle \nJulius is the devil. As Robert pointed out, he has very small feet \n(hooves?). He also has one shoulder noticeably higher than the other (is \nthis another attribute of the devil?). It also fits well with my theory that \nJulius poisoned Mr. Tilly in order to inherit his carny practice. \n\nSo after a brief interval where he lives with the devil, Weer goes to \ncollege, graduates, comes back to work for the devil, and eventually inherits \nfrom the devil. This can't be good for his soul. I was reminded of the \nstory of the banshee in Peace. Briefly summarized, Jack and Molly are in \nlove, but Molly's father can't stand the thought of his daughter marrying a \npenniless laborer, so he insists that Jack stay in the barn haunted by the \nbanshee for a night. Jack eventually defeats the banshee and marries Molly, \nbut because of the banshee, Molly's father dies and Jack is never able to \nconsummate his marriage. I think this story hints at \"what went wrong\" in \nWeer's life.\n\nAfter college, the natural time for Weer to consider marrying Margaret Lorn, \nWeer's parents had probably already lost all their money. (At least, all of \nit they hadn't spent on their years touring Europe and on Olivia's wedding. \nIs there any doubt that they lost their money in the Depression?). \nMargaret's father, Carl, is a pennypincher, and easily might have insisted \nthat Weer get a good job before he marry Margaret. So Weer goes to work at \nthe factory, kills someone in the coldhouse prank, loses his chance for \nMargaret, and becomes a virtual slave to uncle Julius. \n\nFinally, if Julius is the devil, I have to wonder if he conspired with \nProfessor Peacock in Olivia's death. They were good friends when Peacock \nintroduced Julius to Olivia, and there is the mysterious letter from Peacock \nto Julius on the President's desk which Weer is unable to read because it's \nnailed down. Did Julius inherit any money from her? If so, his factory was \nbuilt using money that is triply blood money. He got it from Mr. Tilly's \ndeath, from Olivia's death, and from the carny practice, which carries guilt \nat least for Mrs. Tilly's and Rodney's deaths, as well as any ill effects on \nthe carnies.\n\nI've run out of speculations for now, which is probably good because they're \nbased on less and less textual evidence, so I'll end here.\n\n- Stone Ox" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Andre-Driussi", "address": "mantis at siriusfiction.com" }, "date": "2002-08-19T02:59:48+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) More Musings on Peace", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stone Ox wrote:\nSo after a brief interval where he lives with the devil, Weer goes to\ncollege, graduates, comes back to work for the devil, and eventually inherits\nfrom the devil. This can't be good for his soul. I was reminded of the\nstory of the banshee in Peace. Briefly summarized, Jack and Molly are in\nlove, but Molly's father can't stand the thought of his daughter marrying a\npenniless laborer, so he insists that Jack stay in the barn haunted by the\nbanshee for a night. Jack eventually defeats the banshee and marries Molly,\nbut because of the banshee, Molly's father dies and Jack is never able to\nconsummate his marriage. I think this story hints at \"what went wrong\" in\nWeer's life.\n\nAfter college, the natural time for Weer to consider marrying Margaret Lorn,\nWeer's parents had probably already lost all their money. (At least, all of\nit they hadn't spent on their years touring Europe and on Olivia's wedding.\nIs there any doubt that they lost their money in the Depression?).\nMargaret's father, Carl, is a pennypincher, and easily might have insisted\nthat Weer get a good job before he marry Margaret. So Weer goes to work at\nthe factory, kills someone in the coldhouse prank, loses his chance for\nMargaret, and becomes a virtual slave to uncle Julius." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is interesting!\n\nJust to be sure I comprehend, a timeline would look like this:\n\n\n1934 (Weer at 20) Weer buys car as college junior\n\n1935 (Weer at 21) Weer graduates from college; picnic with Margaret (\"age\nof the bicycle\") => engagement with qualifications (we've discussed this\nangle before, iirc)\n\n1938 (Weer at 24) Coldhouse prank.\n\n1939 (Weer at 25) the Chinese Garden dream.\n\nOkay, the only problems are \"age of the bicycle,\" which could be fixed by\nmoving the picnic two years back to 1933; and the date of Olivia's death,\nwhich I haven't placed here (because you did not mention where it goes),\nsince it complicates matters between Smart and Weer, including Weer's\nemployment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Finally, if Julius is the devil, I have to wonder if he conspired with\nProfessor Peacock in Olivia's death. They were good friends when Peacock\nintroduced Julius to Olivia, and there is the mysterious letter from Peacock\nto Julius on the President's desk which Weer is unable to read because it's\nnailed down. Did Julius inherit any money from her? If so, his factory was\nbuilt using money that is triply blood money. He got it from Mr. Tilly's\ndeath, from Olivia's death, and from the carny practice, which carries guilt\nat least for Mrs. Tilly's and Rodney's deaths, as well as any ill effects on\nthe carnies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, this goes well with Robert Borski's idea that Weer accused Smart of\nkilling Olivia, either by turning her into a \"monster\" or more directly (in\nthis example, by arranging her murder). It was this exchange of words (or\nwhatever happened at Olivia's funeral) which made Smart refuse to talk to\nWeer again (and makes the job placement angle so tricky).\n\n=mantis=\n\n\nSirius Fiction\nbooklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley\n29 copies of \"Snake's-hands\" until OP!\nhttp://www.siriusfiction.com/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2002-08-19T05:48:40+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) More Musings on Peace", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "mantis quoted and wrote:\nStone Ox wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So after a brief interval where he lives with the devil, Weer goes to\ncollege, graduates, comes back to work for the devil, and eventually\ninherits\nfrom the devil. This can't be good for his soul. I was reminded of the\nstory of the banshee in Peace. Briefly summarized, Jack and Molly are in\nlove, but Molly's father can't stand the thought of his daughter marrying\na\npenniless laborer, so he insists that Jack stay in the barn haunted by the\nbanshee for a night. Jack eventually defeats the banshee and marries\nMolly,\nbut because of the banshee, Molly's father dies and Jack is never able to\nconsummate his marriage. I think this story hints at \"what went wrong\" in\nWeer's life.\n\nAfter college, the natural time for Weer to consider marrying Margaret\nLorn,\nWeer's parents had probably already lost all their money. (At least, all\nof\nit they hadn't spent on their years touring Europe and on Olivia's\nwedding.\nIs there any doubt that they lost their money in the Depression?).\nMargaret's father, Carl, is a pennypincher, and easily might have insisted\nthat Weer get a good job before he marry Margaret. So Weer goes to work\nat\nthe factory, kills someone in the coldhouse prank, loses his chance for\nMargaret, and becomes a virtual slave to uncle Julius." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That is interesting!\n\nJust to be sure I comprehend, a timeline would look like this:\n\n\n1934 (Weer at 20) Weer buys car as college junior\n\n1935 (Weer at 21) Weer graduates from college; picnic with Margaret (\"age\nof the bicycle\") => engagement with qualifications (we've discussed this\nangle before, iirc)\n\n1938 (Weer at 24) Coldhouse prank.\n\n1939 (Weer at 25) the Chinese Garden dream.\n\nOkay, the only problems are \"age of the bicycle,\" which could be fixed by\nmoving the picnic two years back to 1933; and the date of Olivia's death,\nwhich I haven't placed here (because you did not mention where it goes),\nsince it complicates matters between Smart and Weer, including Weer's\nemployment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree that the \"age of the bicycle\" and the picnic are linked, but that\nhappened when Weer and Margaret were in high school (107), not after\ncollege. In Weer's \"what went wrong\" speech (201), his plans for their\nfuture included that he _would_ inherit, between the ages of twenty and\nthirty, his father's estate; his twentieth birthday was still in the future\nof those plans. Those plans did not include working for Smart; at that point\nhe thought he had no need and ,anyway, Smart's plant did not then exist.\nWeer should have been in high school from 1928-1932. His father had not yet\nsuffered the loss of his farm-based wealth to the Depression, so that picnic\nprobably occurred during Weer's 1st or 2nd year of high school, when he was\n14 or 15, which also fits in with the bicycles and virginity angle. Weer was\ndefinitely still living at home with his parents the day of the picnic;\nthat's when he had the dream of Margaret, the dog boy, and his father (146).\n\nHe told the Tilly tale to Margaret on that picnic, which may have turned her\nagainst him (as you have suggested before). Or she may just have lost\ninterest when the Weers lost their fortune.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }