{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/3430", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 3430, "subject": "Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "messages": 13, "voices": 8, "first": "2002-08-30T14:31:57+00:00", "last": "2002-09-13T21:54:57+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-08-30T14:31:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The following is my response to A. Bin Talal who contacted me off-list but\nhas offered of his own accord for my response to be posted on-list.\n------------------------------------------------------------------\nThanks so much for your comments.\n\nYou say:\nIn Thelxepeia's Mirrors you assert that Hyacinth is male chem, your\narguments for Hyacinth being a chem are very compelling, but do not explain\nhow she became Viron's top prostitute.\n\nResponse\nWell, the story is somewhat vague on exactly how that occurred. It probably\nbegan while she was sold by her (I'll refer to Hyacinth in the feminine)\nfather to be a housemaid. She was attractive and she began to make money for\nsexual favors. From there, she began to take on the necessary modifications\nto make even more money.\n\nYou say:\nThe other arguments about overpowering the pilot could be taken as clues she\nis not human but a chem, a chem female should be stronger then a human\n\nResponse\nTrue, and I consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence that she is\nchem - not male. Actually, Marble DOES over-power Musk. This brings up a\npoint that I should segregate those arguments that Hyacinth is a MALE chem\nfrom those that show she is MERELY chem.\n\nYou say:\nThe arguments for her being a male are alas unsound, you seem to use\ncircular logic, she is a male because of 'thematic requirement'(which you\nassert there aren't any), the story about Apollo's lover and the church, but\nshe represent that theme because she is a male!! in short you assume she is\nmale, then conclude she is male, your conclusion is correct but you can't\ngeneralize it (I took a course on formal logic, never thinking I will be\nusing it.\n\nResponse\nI don't consider my arguments circular. I consider the story of Hyacinthus\nis to be a thematic *allowance* that she \"could\" reasonably be male but not\na requirement. If one accepts that Hyacinth is chem, then the concept of\nhomosexuality might just as reasonably be satisfied by Silk's stated\ndoppelganger relationship with Sgt. Sand (in Blood's house in Calde of the\nLong Sun). On the other hand, that would still not be homosexuality since\nchems are sexually divergent like bios. Still, Wolfe *could* have used Silks\n\"mentoring\" relationship with Horn on the airship to incorporate that aspect\nof the Apollo-Hyacinthus relationship - Wolfe does a lot of character\nsyncretism in the sub textual themes of the Long Sun (I haven't yet\npublished my essay on Silk and Auk playing duo roles as Hephaestus and as\nAristaeus, or how Mint, Marble, and Rose merge into the Myrtle-nymphs, but I\nwill after I finish reading Robert Graves' \"White Goddess.\")\n\nMy point is that while it \"fits\" for Hyacinth to be male, she doesn't NEED\nto be as IMO Incus NEEDS to be female because of the roll she plays\nregarding Quetzal (the demon-Dionysus) and the roll she plays in the\nAristaeus story (not that Incus particularly needs to be a female, but in\nthe sense that only a female could play those roles).\n\nThe most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male (there are weaker\nones) are the following:\n1. Hyacinth's statement:\n\"You know what I look like without all this [make-up and clothes]?...Like a\nboy, only with tits down to my waist.\"\n2. In the Silks conversation with Horn on the airship, discussing why he\ntried to kill himself, Silk talks about Marble's lie about being Moly and\nthe general plight of the chem population *due to the lack* of female chems.\nSilk further points out, \"Some male chems were artisans and farm laborers,\nfrom what I know of them, and a few were servants - butlers and so forth.\"\n3. In the same conversation, Horn also says that Hyacinth behaves physically\nweak and in a female-identifiable manner, because she wants Silk to be\nattracted to her. Just as the fierce lynx, Lion (a female with a male\nname-note that this is specifically pointed out) pretends to be kittenish\nwith Mucor.\n\nAgain, thank you so much for your interest, your arguments really made me\nthink.." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-08-30T20:34:03+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nThe following is my response to A. Bin Talal who contacted me off-list\nbut\nhas offered of his own accord for my response to be posted on-list.\n------------------------------------------------------------------\nThanks so much for your comments." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You say:\nThe other arguments about overpowering the pilot could be taken as clues\nshe\nis not human but a chem, a chem female should be stronger then a human\n\nResponse\nTrue, and I consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence that she\nis\nchem - not male." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is that inconsistent with her being a healthy young human woman who\nhas experience at fighting? She takes the pilot by surprise, ramming her\nthumbs into her (the pilot's) eyes and kicking her knees until she falls\ndown. Seems quite reasonable to me. Silk thinks Hyacinth blinded the\npilot, but Chenille (I think) disagrees. This is evidence that Hyacinth\nis *not* a chem--someone with superhuman strength could (I imagine)\nobviously blind a person this way by breaking her eyeballs, and probably\nobviously cripple her knees as well." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, Marble DOES over-power Musk. This brings up a\npoint that I should segregate those arguments that Hyacinth is a MALE\nchem\nfrom those that show she is MERELY chem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quite true.\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male (there are weaker\nones) are the following:\n1. Hyacinth's statement:\n\"You know what I look like without all this [make-up and\nclothes]?...Like a\nboy, only with tits down to my waist.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She doesn't mean she has a penis. Silk would have spotted that (and then\nwould have nicknamed Hyacinth \"Pinto\"). I don't think this comment is\nparticularly amazing for a slender young woman who has had a breast\nenhancement and tends to speak of her appearance deprecatingly. \nIncidentally, it brings up what I think is one of the stronger criticisms\nof your theory: would Silk really have sex with someone he knew was a\nchem, and if not, could he really be fooled?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. In the Silks conversation with Horn on the airship, discussing why he\ntried to kill himself, Silk talks about Marble's lie about being Moly\nand\nthe general plight of the chem population *due to the lack* of female\nchems.\nSilk further points out, \"Some male chems were artisans and farm\nlaborers,\nfrom what I know of them, and a few were servants - butlers and so\nforth.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see this as a straightforward clue. In fact, I don't see it as\nevidence at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. In the same conversation, Horn also says that Hyacinth behaves\nphysically\nweak and in a female-identifiable manner, because she wants Silk to be\nattracted to her. Just as the fierce lynx, Lion (a female with a male\nname-note that this is specifically pointed out) pretends to be\nkittenish\nwith Mucor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems to be completely consistent with her being a tough young woman\nthanks to the life at Orchid's that Chenille describes.\n\nBy far the best clue I see that Hyacinth *could* be a chem is her name, as\nyou pointed out. But I see nothing to contradict the obvious\ninterpretation that she's a bio.\n\nSpeaking of Chenille and names, this seems like a good time to restate my\ntheory that Chenille, who has an ambiguous name, could be a chromosmal\nmale with testicular feminization syndrome (perhaps Tussah's failed\nattempt at a male heir?).\n...\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-08-31T18:22:26+00:00", "subject": "FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman says:\nBy far the best clue I see that Hyacinth *could* be a chem is her name, as\nyou pointed out. But I see nothing to contradict the obvious interpretation\nthat she's a bio.\n\nI respond:\nAh! But then you immediately identify a very BIG one -- see below. Of\ncourse, names could be coincidences (you mention Chenille's), but if someone\ncan show that Villus is a little girl pretending to be a little boy, I'll\ncollect my trophy immediately. Also, I have vociferously asserted that Incus\n(a man's name) is a woman - and if I'm wrong about that I should shut down\nmy site. Hyacinth's name is a flag, but only one among many.\n\n-------------------------------------------\n\nJerry Friedman says:\nSpeaking of Chenille and names, this seems like a good time to restate my\ntheory that Chenille, who has an ambiguous name, could be a chromosomal male\nwith testicular feminization syndrome (perhaps Tussah's failed attempt at a\nmale heir?).\n\nI respond:\nI agree it's ambiguous, I've yet to formulate a theory as to why. All I know\nfor sure is that she's not the biological heir of Tussah (because he's not\nhuman).\n\nThis brings up a relevant point though because Auk is the lover of Chenille.\nAuk, as I will explain in a planned essay, is the \"awk end\" of Silk. While\nSilk is Hesphaestus the lame Smith god (whom Graves identifies as originally\na Sun god, \"he who shines by day\"), the Sun ascending, the supplicant of\nThetis-Kypris..., Auk on the other hand is Hesphaestus, the Sun gone down\ninto the Underworld, in the cave in service to Thetis, with his hammer\n(Hamerstone) and anvil (which is the meaning of 'Incus'). They share duty as\nAristaeus and as Briarius. Auk leads his followers to Green (Hell, if the\nSHORT SUN goes as I expect) and Silk leads them to Blue.\n\nSo if Silk is to Hyacinth as Auk is to Chenille...\n\nSomething to think about.\n\n-----------------------------------------\n\nI Said:\nI consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence that she is chem - not\nmale.\n\nJerry Friedman says:\nWhy is that inconsistent with her being a healthy young human woman who has\nexperience at fighting? She takes the pilot by surprise, ramming her thumbs\ninto her (the pilot's) eyes and kicking her knees until she falls down.\nSeems quite reasonable to me. Silk thinks Hyacinth blinded the pilot, but\nChenille (I think) disagrees. This is evidence that Hyacinth is *not* a\nchem--someone with superhuman strength could (I imagine) obviously blind a\nperson this way by breaking her eyeballs, and probably obviously cripple her\nknees as well.\n\nMy Response\nKnowing how to handle yourself in a brothel cat-fight is not like taking on\na trained soldier -- particularly for a very petite young woman as Hyacinth\nis. Silk caught Chenille and Hyacinth in a lie in the very exchange to which\nyou're referring, so she's really not credible. Actually, that conversation\nsuggested both that Hyacinth is hiding something and that Chenille is an\naccomplice in it.\n\nAnyway, Silk has another take on it. Here's a subject-to-subject run-down of\nSilk's\nconversation with Horn after he asks why Silk tried to kill himself -- after\nHorn says, \"Won't you please tell me what's wrong? Please, Calde?\"\n\n1. Silk says the Plan of Pas has gone awry and cites the plight of the\nchems as an example. There aren't enough female chems.\n\n2. Horn alludes to his suspicions regarding Silk's true heritage, to which\nSilk finally answers, \"There are so many lies in the whorl...May I instance\nyou one more? Hyacinth subdued our pilot, Hyacinth alone.\" How is that a lie\nif the fight went the way you describe it? If it went like Marble's fight\nwith Musk (as I infer) then there really is something else going on.\n\n3. Silk compares Hyacinth over-powering the pilot to the idea of Incus\nover-powering Auk. This is an interesting analogy because Incus has just\nacquitted (him)self quite well in battle. Everyone has seen Incus \"bewitch\"\nthe Trivigaunte's weapons. The only reason it DOES apply is that\nIncus is a woman in disguise.\n\n4. Horn compares Hyacinth with the female lynx, Lion (male name), acting\nkittenish for Mucor's approval. Here is a second character in disguise -\nthis one in two ways.\n\n5. Horn says that Hyacinth and Hammerstone have a rather unique\nrelationship. They behave as equals. He does NOT say Chenille also shares\nthis relationship with \"Stoney\" even though she is also a tough prostitute\nwith an actual history with him as comrades-in-arms. This may be a false\nmemory but one of the things on my list to look for in a re-reading is the\nreference to Hammerstone's impressive chin (I think it's while he's in the\ntunnels with Auk and Chenille. Of course Chenille goes on about Hyacinth's\nchin (conversation on the airship).\n\n6. Silk talks about his wedding night - that it was \"wonderful\" yet there\nwas a \"taint\" to it that did not come from either of them.\n\n7. Silk says that the Outsider created the gods and that evil serves the\nOutsider because it draws us to him.\n\n8. Then Horn asks again why Silk tried to kill himself, and Silk says,\n\"It's obvious, isn't it?\"\n\nWell maybe it isn't so obvious, but I think I get the gist of it. I\nrecommend you re-read this conversation and between Silk and Horn after they\nreturn to the airship. See if my reading doesn't fit. Silk IMO is saying the\nfollowing:\n\n\"This whorl is a humongous turd-shaped cluster-f, a \"shag-up\" as Hammerstone\ncalled it, an unresolveable knot from the sphincter of Escher. It is so\nscrewed-up, so far beyond correction or reform, that even love is tainted.\nThe love Hyacinth and I share (the first thing that either of us have done\nthat we now rightly consider worthwhile) is a screw-up arrangement from the\nvery start.\n\n\"Because female chems are so rare, it is unlikely any particular male chem\nwill ever find love. So the one I love has taken perhaps the only\nopportunity to escape the loveless life of a chem. I myself am an\n\"artificial\" thing, a thing made by Pas -- constructed from flesh rather\nthan metal. So is the whorl we live in. I myself have just left a long\nlove-affair with the Nine whom I now know to be artificial constructions at\nbest, demons at worst. There is no resolution, there is no fix, no going\nback to a time when things were right and starting over (because no such\ntime existed). The Outsider doesn't want to *fix* this whorl. He wants save\nus right out of it -- not to Blue or Green either, that's just a picture of\nwhat He wants to do. I wanted to force that by killing myself and escaping\nto Him, but that's just one more screwed-up plan of a creature of this\nwhorl.\"\n\n-----------------------------------------------\n\nI said:\nThe most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male are the following:\n1. Hyacinth's statement:\n \"You know what I look like without all this [make-up and clothes]?...Like a\nboy, only with tits down to my waist.\"\n\nJerry Friedman says:\nShe doesn't mean she has a penis....I don't think this comment is\nparticularly amazing for a slender young woman who has had a breast\nenhancement and tends to speak of her appearance deprecatingly.\nIncidentally, it brings up what I think is one of the stronger criticisms of\nyour theory: would Silk really have sex with someone he knew was a chem, and\nif not, could he really be fooled?\n\nI respond:\nChems don't have penis. Obviously she has made modifications in order to\ncarry out her rouse. I don't think Silk knew that she was a chem until the\nwedding night, and then only after he was enlightened for the second time. I\nthink Oosik knew she was a chem, that's why he went out of his way to remind\nSilk how lucky he was. Chenille did the same thing. Those that knew she was\na chem didn't care, perhaps it made her more appealing as a whore. Using\nsomeone as a prostitute is an act that in itself \"objectifies\" the person --\nusing them as a \"thing.\"\n\nIt WAS a problem for Silk. Consider his reaction after she takes out the\npilot, consider that he does not have sex with her after their wedding night\n(at least up until his conversation with Horn on the airship).\nBut he loved her. There is no evidence that sex with a chem (for a laymen)\nis a sin in his religion -- still, it bothered him. It struck him as\nunnatural, \"awk\", and screwed-up BUT when he considered it, it was not\nHyacinth but Pas' Plan that was screwed up and the whole whorl he created.\nAnd after all, Silk himself is no thing of \"nature,\" nor is the whorl they\nlive in. The fact that everything was so screwed up that even good acts have\nan awk element in them is why Silk tried to kill himself.\n\n---Consider Silk's \"meritorious deed\" of trying to save his falling apart\nmantaeon from destruction - he realizes later that \"saving\" it will mean\nrazing it and rebuilding it from scratch - then he realizes that \"saving\" it\nmeans leaving the structures behind and getting its PEOPLE out of the\nwhorl ---\n\nHe finally chooses, rather than reform the evil in the whorl, or to reject\neverything in which he finds evil (like Horn for instance) to depend on the\nOutsider's rescue.\n\n\n--Crush" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-08-31T20:47:29+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Wynn wrote:\nJerry Friedman says:\nBy far the best clue I see that Hyacinth *could* be a chem is her name,\nas\nyou pointed out. But I see nothing to contradict the obvious\ninterpretation\nthat she's a bio.\n\nI respond:\nAh! But then you immediately identify a very BIG one -- see below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which one?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...Hyacinth's name is a flag, but only one among many." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[Snip some discussion of mythology. My take on all of your mythological\narguments is that Wolfe is well-read in classical mythology and we\nshouldn't be surprised if some of his stories resemble myths. Even if\nhe's sometimes thinking of specific myths, as in the Theseus story in the\nbrown book or the reference to *spoiler* that you'll like at the end of\nTBotSS. But I don't think that means you can argue allegorically as\nyou've been doing--X represents Chi so X must have some property of Chi.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----------------------------------------\n\nI Said:\nI consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence that she is chem -\nnot\nmale.\n\nJerry Friedman says:\nWhy is that inconsistent with her being a healthy young human woman who\nhas\nexperience at fighting? She takes the pilot by surprise, ramming her\nthumbs\ninto her (the pilot's) eyes and kicking her knees until she falls down.\nSeems quite reasonable to me. Silk thinks Hyacinth blinded the pilot,\nbut\nChenille (I think) disagrees. This is evidence that Hyacinth is *not* a\nchem--someone with superhuman strength could (I imagine) obviously blind\na\nperson this way by breaking her eyeballs, and probably obviously cripple\nher\nknees as well.\n\nMy Response\nKnowing how to handle yourself in a brothel cat-fight is not like taking\non\na trained soldier -- particularly for a very petite young woman as\nHyacinth\nis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anybody out there have any experience in hand-to-hand combat? My feeling\nis that, between two people with experience in fighting, the advantage of\nsurprise is decisive. The pilot simply doesn't have the reaction time to\nevade the blows, and I think you'd have to be a *really* experienced\nfighter to do much after painful blows like the ones described. We know\nnothing about the pilot's training, but we can guess that it has focused\non piloting and that the combat part of it has focused on fighting with\nweapons, which is far more useful for soldiers. So the pilot may have\nlittle more experience than Hyacinth. We also don't know how big the\npilot is, do we?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Silk caught Chenille and Hyacinth in a lie in the very exchange to\nwhich\nyou're referring, so she's really not credible. Actually, that\nconversation\nsuggested both that Hyacinth is hiding something and that Chenille is an\naccomplice in it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, but the lie may simply be one of Hyacinth's attempts to seem cute\nand kittenish." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, Silk has another take on it. Here's a subject-to-subject\nrun-down of\nSilk's\nconversation with Horn after he asks why Silk tried to kill himself --" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Even before this, Silk was suicidal (if we can believe Horn). He thinks\nit would be a blessing if the airship crashed into the lake, and I think\nthere's something else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "after\nHorn says, \"Won't you please tell me what's wrong? Please, Calde?\"\n\n1. Silk says the Plan of Pas has gone awry and cites the plight of\nthe\nchems as an example. There aren't enough female chems.\n\n2. Horn alludes to his suspicions regarding Silk's true heritage, to\nwhich\nSilk finally answers, \"There are so many lies in the whorl...May I\ninstance\nyou one more? Hyacinth subdued our pilot, Hyacinth alone.\" How is that a\nlie\nif the fight went the way you describe it? If it went like Marble's\nfight\nwith Musk (as I infer) then there really is something else going on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I described it pretty much the way Horn described it. It's possible Horn\nwas wrong for some reason--I forget whether he was a witness. Is that\nwhat you're saying?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Silk compares Hyacinth over-powering the pilot to the idea of\nIncus\nover-powering Auk. This is an interesting analogy because Incus has just\nacquitted (him)self quite well in battle. Everyone has seen Incus\n\"bewitch\"\nthe Trivigaunte's weapons. The only reason it DOES apply is that\nIncus is a woman in disguise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is contrary to your argument. Incus acquits himself (?) well in\nbattle despite being relatively weak and timid, even (if you're right)\ndespite being a woman, so it's evidence that Hyacinth's success is\npossible to a woman." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Horn compares Hyacinth with the female lynx, Lion (male name),\nacting\nkittenish for Mucor's approval. Here is a second character in disguise -\nthis one in two ways.\n\n5. Horn says that Hyacinth and Hammerstone have a rather unique\nrelationship. They behave as equals." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I admit this one is suggestive, but it may just tell us something about\nHyacinth's personality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He does NOT say Chenille also shares\nthis relationship with \"Stoney\" even though she is also a tough\nprostitute\nwith an actual history with him as comrades-in-arms. This may be a false\nmemory but one of the things on my list to look for in a re-reading is\nthe\nreference to Hammerstone's impressive chin (I think it's while he's in\nthe\ntunnels with Auk and Chenille. Of course Chenille goes on about\nHyacinth's\nchin (conversation on the airship)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though about its beauty, not its impressiveness, and for all we know its\nbeauty could be thanks to Crane." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "6. Silk talks about his wedding night - that it was \"wonderful\" yet\nthere\nwas a \"taint\" to it that did not come from either of them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It came from Adam and Eve. The prudish and enlightened Silk in the\nCatholic Lupiverse considers that something is wrong with premarital sex\nand maybe with all sex that's not for the purpose of procreation. There's\nevidence for Silk's belief in TBoTSS, a line about going clean to one's\nmarriage bed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "7. Silk says that the Outsider created the gods and that evil serves\nthe\nOutsider because it draws us to him.\n\n8. Then Horn asks again why Silk tried to kill himself, and Silk\nsays,\n\"It's obvious, isn't it?\"\n\nWell maybe it isn't so obvious, but I think I get the gist of it. I\nrecommend you re-read this conversation and between Silk and Horn after\nthey\nreturn to the airship. See if my reading doesn't fit. Silk IMO is saying\nthe\nfollowing:\n\n\"This whorl is a humongous turd-shaped cluster-f, a \"shag-up\" as\nHammerstone\ncalled it, an unresolveable knot from the sphincter of Escher. It is so\nscrewed-up, so far beyond correction or reform, that even love is\ntainted.\nThe love Hyacinth and I share (the first thing that either of us have\ndone\nthat we now rightly consider worthwhile) is a screw-up arrangement from\nthe\nvery start.\n\n\"Because female chems are so rare, it is unlikely any particular male\nchem\nwill ever find love. So the one I love has taken perhaps the only\nopportunity to escape the loveless life of a chem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is where you need your claim that Hyacinth is male, right? If so, he\nhad another opportunity--to pass for a male bio and love a woman. Why not\ndo that instead of (I imagine) getting a black mechanic to reorient his\nsexuality? Or are there gay male chems?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I myself am an\n\"artificial\" thing, a thing made by Pas -- constructed from flesh rather\nthan metal. So is the whorl we live in. I myself have just left a long\nlove-affair with the Nine whom I now know to be artificial constructions\nat\nbest, demons at worst. There is no resolution, there is no fix, no going\nback to a time when things were right and starting over (because no such\ntime existed). The Outsider doesn't want to *fix* this whorl. He wants\nsave\nus right out of it -- not to Blue or Green either, that's just a picture\nof\nwhat He wants to do. I wanted to force that by killing myself and\nescaping\nto Him, but that's just one more screwed-up plan of a creature of this\nwhorl.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I pretty much agree with you, but Hyacinth's being a chem is unnecessary\nto you argument. Silk is disappointed at the way she's deceived him (and\nmay be thinking that he played up to her in the same way--and of course he\nfeels guilty about losing his virginity)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "-----------------------------------------------\n\nI said:\nThe most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male are the following:\n1. Hyacinth's statement:\n \"You know what I look like without all this [make-up and\nclothes]?...Like a\nboy, only with tits down to my waist.\"\n\nJerry Friedman says:\nShe doesn't mean she has a penis....I don't think this comment is\nparticularly amazing for a slender young woman who has had a breast\nenhancement and tends to speak of her appearance deprecatingly.\nIncidentally, it brings up what I think is one of the stronger\ncriticisms of\nyour theory: would Silk really have sex with someone he knew was a chem,\nand\nif not, could he really be fooled?\n\nI respond:\nChems don't have penis. Obviously she has made modifications in order to\ncarry out her rouse. I don't think Silk knew that she was a chem until\nthe\nwedding night, and then only after he was enlightened for the second\ntime." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How could he not have known that the woman he was in bed with was not a\nbiological human? (On the other hand, the narrator of \"Seven American\nNights\" does have a comparable surprise--but one or the other of his\nexperiences may have been a hallucination.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I\nthink Oosik knew she was a chem, that's why he went out of his way to\nremind\nSilk how lucky he was. Chenille did the same thing. Those that knew she\nwas\na chem didn't care, perhaps it made her more appealing as a whore. Using\nsomeone as a prostitute is an act that in itself \"objectifies\" the\nperson --\nusing them as a \"thing.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is certainly possible, but I'd expect liking chem prostitutes to be\nrather a minority taste." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It WAS a problem for Silk. Consider his reaction after she takes out the\npilot, consider that he does not have sex with her after their wedding\nnight (at least up until his conversation with Horn on the airship)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think they had much time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But he loved her. There is no evidence that sex with a chem (for a\nlaymen)\nis a sin in his religion -- still, it bothered him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you're saying he didn't know she was a chem while they were having sex,\nI guess it doesn't matter whether it bothered him because the Outsider\nenlightened him and told him sex with nonhumans is sinful, or because he\njust considered it unnatural, or whatever." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It struck him as\nunnatural, \"awk\", and screwed-up BUT when he considered it, it was not\nHyacinth but Pas' Plan that was screwed up and the whole whorl he\ncreated.\nAnd after all, Silk himself is no thing of \"nature,\" nor is the whorl\nthey\nlive in. The fact that everything was so screwed up that even good acts\nhave\nan awk element in them is why Silk tried to kill himself.\n\n---Consider Silk's \"meritorious deed\" of trying to save his falling\napart\nmantaeon from destruction - he realizes later that \"saving\" it will mean\nrazing it and rebuilding it from scratch - then he realizes that\n\"saving\" it\nmeans leaving the structures behind and getting its PEOPLE out of the\nwhorl ---\n\nHe finally chooses, rather than reform the evil in the whorl, or to\nreject\neverything in which he finds evil (like Horn for instance) to depend on\nthe\nOutsider's rescue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, I more or less agree, but don't see the connection to Hyacinth's\nbeing a chem rather than just not entirely candid.\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-08-31T18:24:14+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have been offlist for a while and just got back.\n\nI now fear I am suffering a disconnect from reality.\n\nIs it really possible that all the discussions on this list have been this\nloony, and it is only now I come back after some time away that I am able to\njudge them properly? :-)\n\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n\n--- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nTo: \nSent: Saturday, August 31, 2002 9:47 PM\nSubject: Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth\n\n--- James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jerry Friedman says:\nBy far the best clue I see that Hyacinth *could* be a chem is her name,\nas\nyou pointed out. But I see nothing to contradict the obvious" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice K. Turner", "address": "aturner6 at nyc.rr.com" }, "date": "2002-09-01T03:23:06+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "hartshorn,\n\nYes, they (discussions, not discussers, necessarily--it remains to be seen)\nare this loony. Help us back to some semblance of sanity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is it really possible that all the discussions on this list have been this\nloony, and it is only now I come back after some time away that I am able\nto\njudge them properly? :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "-alga" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "matthew.malthouse", "address": "matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-02T09:34:24+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 31/08/2002 19:24:14 Andy Robertson wrote:\nIs it really possible that all the discussions on this list have been\nthis\nloony, and it is only now I come back after some time away that I am able\nto\njudge them properly? :-)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A break does provide one with perspective, does it not? ;-)\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andy Robertson", "address": "andywrobertson at clara.co.uk" }, "date": "2002-09-02T07:18:54+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah well, I love it anyway. But the idea that Hyacinth is a transsexual bio\ndoes seem slightly more probable, I confess: though I really see no need for\nit.\n\n hartshorn\n\n\n\n----- Original Message -----" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \nTo: \nSent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:34 AM\nSubject: Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth\n\n\n\nOn 31/08/2002 19:24:14 Andy Robertson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is it really possible that all the discussions on this list have been\nthis\nloony, and it is only now I come back after some time away that I am able\nto\njudge them properly? :-)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A break does provide one with perspective, does it not? ;-)\n\nMatthew" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "William Ansley", "address": "wansley at warwick.net" }, "date": "2002-09-07T05:01:28+00:00", "subject": "Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 1:22 PM -0500 8/31/02, James Wynn wrote:\n2. Horn alludes to his suspicions regarding Silk's true heritage, to which\nSilk finally answers, \"There are so many lies in the whorl...May I instance\nyou one more? Hyacinth subdued our pilot, Hyacinth alone.\" How is that a lie\nif the fight went the way you describe it? If it went like Marble's fight\nwith Musk (as I infer) then there really is something else going on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello, Crush.\n\nI *finally* caught up with all the messages generated in response to \nyour quite interesting ideas and I have a comment to make. But first \nI must warn you that, if anyone is, I am part of the \"not ... large \ncontingent on the list\" that Robert Borski warned you about in his \nmessage of 8/28/02, the members of which will subject you to \"a \ncertain amount of ridicule, scorn, and derision.\" I certainly don't \nintend to submit you to such things, but I never meant to do so to \nRobert, either, so apparently I can't help it.\n\nI don't agree with you on the necessity of Hyacinth being a chem. In \nfact, we seem to be interpreting Wolfe's words so radically \ndifferently, I doubt we can agree on much. You cite Silk's line \n\"There are so many lies in the whorl...May I instance you one more? \nHyacinth subdued our pilot, Hyacinth alone.\" as support for the idea \nthat Hyacinth is a chem, if I understand you correctly. It seems to \nme to be just the opposite.\n\nYour reasoning seems to be:\n-Hyacinth did defeat the pilot alone.\n-A normal flesh and blood woman would have had a very hard time doing \nthis while a chem would have had an easy time of it.\n-Therefore, it is very likely that Hyacinth is a chem.\n-Silk is aware there is something fishy about how Hyacinth defeated \nthe pilot so he say the line above.\n\nBut surely, the statement \"Hyacinth subdued our pilot, Hyacinth \nalone.\" is *true* if Hyacinth defeated the pilot by herself, whether \nshe is a chem or a bio. The only thing that would make it a lie is if \nshe *had help from someone else*! I have no idea what form this help \nmight have taken or who it was from (or even if she really did have \nhelp) but the way I interpret Silk's remark is that he suspects that \nHyacinth had help, not that she is a chem with super-strength. If \nSilk had said something along the lines of \"There are so many lies in \nthe whorl...May I instance you one more? Hyacinth subdued our pilot, \nHyacinth, a mere weak, flesh-and-blood woman.\" then I'd say you had a \npoint." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley\n\n\n-- " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at hotpop.com" }, "date": "2002-09-09T14:29:27+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "William Ansley said:\nI don't agree with you on the necessity of Hyacinth being a chem. In\nfact, we seem to be interpreting Wolfe's words so radically\ndifferently, I doubt we can agree on much.\n\nCrush responds:\nThis is a very good point. This recent thread has taught me how naive I was\nto think everyone would read Wolfe in the same way I do. I never let a word\nor conversation go without critical investigation. When Oosik goes on about\nhow he wishes he were in Silk's place with Hyacinth, I say \"why's he doing\nthis?\" When Chenille compares Hy to Poppy (copy) I say \"what is her point?\"\nNaturally, this leads to all sorts of theories that are weird to someone who\nis willing to give Wolfe the benefit of the doubt regarding \"honest\"\nnarrative motives. I don't know if that category includes you. But I see now\nthat there are people who read him that way unless clearly shown otherwise.\n\nActually, even among people who DO read him the way I do, I've yet (to my\nknowledge) gained a single convert. But they probably won't convert until\nthey re-read the books for themselves and see that mine is the necessary\nconclusion to tie all the clues together (that's the way, it would be for\nme) - in spite of the red-herrings.\n-----------------------------------------\n\nWilliam Ansley said:\nYou cite Silk's line\n\"There are so many lies in the whorl...May I instance you one more?\nHyacinth subdued our pilot, Hyacinth alone.\" as support for the idea\nthat Hyacinth is a chem, if I understand you correctly. It seems to\nme to be just the opposite.\n\nYour reasoning seems to be:\n-Hyacinth did defeat the pilot alone.\n-A normal flesh and blood woman would have had a very hard time doing\nthis while a chem would have had an easy time of it.\n-Therefore, it is very likely that Hyacinth is a chem.\n-Silk is aware there is something fishy about how Hyacinth defeated\nthe pilot so he say the line above.\n\nBut surely, the statement \"Hyacinth subdued our pilot, Hyacinth\nalone.\" is *true* if Hyacinth defeated the pilot by herself, whether\nshe is a chem or a bio. The only thing that would make it a lie is if\nshe *had help from someone else*! I have no idea what form this help\nmight have taken or who it was from (or even if she really did have\nhelp) but the way I interpret Silk's remark is that he suspects that\nHyacinth had help, not that she is a chem with super-strength. If\nSilk had said something along the lines of \"There are so many lies in\nthe whorl...May I instance you one more? Hyacinth subdued our pilot,\nHyacinth, a mere weak, flesh-and-blood woman.\" then I'd say you had a\npoint.\n\nCrush responds:\nHmmm. I consider the lies of the Whorl to be more intricate than that. They\nare lies about lies or lies that cannot be corrected because they are\nactually true in a universe of lies. The lie is that Hyacinth overpowered\nthe pilot, but the Hyacinth she apparently is could never do that.\n\nBut perhaps I'm wrong, then I'd be very interested in your explanation of\nhow the conversation between Horn and Silk (which takes place between Horn's\nwords \"Won't you please tell me what's wrong? Please, Calde?\" and Silks\nwords \"It's obvious isn't?\") explains why Silk tried to kill himself. Silk\ninsists the explanation is there. How do YOU tie the whole conversation into\none single explanation? Or do you say Silk tried to kill himself because\nsomeone helped Hy overpower the pilot?\n\n\n-- Crush." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Michael Straight", "address": "straight at email.unc.edu" }, "date": "2002-09-09T15:55:02+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, James Wynn wrote:\nOr do you say Silk tried to kill himself because\nsomeone helped Hy overpower the pilot?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not because someone helped her, but because she lied to Silk about what\nreally happened. He was sad about being lied to.\n\nOr at least that was my initial impression, looking back at the\nconversation it's hard to see how it all fits together, especially what\nthe stuff about the chems has to do with anything.\n\n-Rostrum" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "James Jordan", "address": "jbjordan4 at cox.net" }, "date": "2002-09-09T16:30:05+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 10:55 AM 9/9/2002, you wrote:\nOn Mon, 9 Sep 2002, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Or do you say Silk tried to kill himself because\nsomeone helped Hy overpower the pilot?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not because someone helped her, but because she lied to Silk about what\nreally happened. He was sad about being lied to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been a long time, but I thought it was because Hy had been unfaithful \nto him.\n\nNutria" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2002-09-13T21:54:57+00:00", "subject": "RE: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--- James Jordan wrote:\nAt 10:55 AM 9/9/2002, you wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 9 Sep 2002, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Or do you say Silk tried to kill himself because\nsomeone helped Hy overpower the pilot?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Not because someone helped her, but because she lied to Silk about what\nreally happened. He was sad about being lied to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's been a long time, but I thought it was because Hy had been\nunfaithful \nto him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Had she?\n\nI thought Silk was upset for exactly the reason that Horn talks about:\nHyacinth had deceived Silk by acting cute and helpless, like Mucor's lynx.\n Her being able to subdue the pilot unassisted is the *evidence* that she\ndeceived him. He hates being made a fool of and he hates wondering\nwhether he loves the real Hyacinth or an illusion. Of course, other\ndepressing things are happening (some of which would only depress a\nsaint).\n\nJerry Friedman" } ] } ] }