# Out of the office (was Re: Digest from urth@urth.net) *The Urth list — 9 messages, 1 voices, 03 Sep 2002* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59* > At 07:56 PM 8/23/02 -0400, you wrote: > Message-ID: <000901c24a69$721697e0$5ef9c518@robertbo> > From: "Robert Borski" > To: > Subject: Re: (urth) The Coldhouse Prank > Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 00:53:35 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Stone Ox writes: >> Robert Borski argues quite eloquently that Ted Singer's father is the >> victim >> in the coldhouse prank. I don't think this can be right, because the >> victim >> lived in a boarding house, was locked in on Friday, and nobody noticed he >> was >> missing until he was discovered on Monday. If the victim had had a wife >> or >> girlfriend, surely he would have been discovered sooner. > But look who imparts this information about the weekend tragedy and the > boarding house connection: Dan French, who, not having been a factory > employee at the time, is simply repeating the sanitized version of the story > as it's been spun down through the years and perhaps even through > semi-official channels, since there's been a coverup. (I do, however, and > for obvious reasons, like the notion that the victim died on Friday.) He > doesn't remember the name of the victim and is completly unaware there is an > even more sinister side to the entire episode, with a lone person being > responsible for the victim's death. As Den also reminds us earlier, such > stories have a way of becoming "both faded and embroidered by time," which > results in a further blurring of the details. And lastly when Dan French > tells the story of the sidhe, it deviates from the traditional in several > respects. > > In other words I think there's plenty of reason to doubt his version of the > story. > > Robert Borski > > > > > > -- > From: matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk > To: urth at urth.net > Message-ID: <80256C1E.004D99D7.00 at ldnmta01.guardian.co.uk> > Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 14:42:15 +0100 > Subject: Re: (urth) PEACE: 3 Misses > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > > > > On 20/08/2002 06:08:34 Roy C. Lackey wrote: >> I can make nothing of "Tyler". > Not having read Peace I have no idea if there's any relevance but the word > can mean door or gate keeper. Archaic and obsolete except in Masonic > Lodges where the additional meaning of keeping out the uninitiated applies > and Tyler is a formal position. To tyle the lodge; bar the doors assured > that only the aurhorised are within. > > The more prosaic meaning being a tiler, one who makes, provides or lays > (roof) tiles. The "i" spelling is prfered to the "y" after about 1670 > although the "y" remains more common as a name. > > From that a cat that frequents roofs. A sneak-thief or burgular. > > Obscurly; also a c17 shoplifter. > > Is that of any help? > > > Matthew > > > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 07:57 PM 8/26/02 -0400, you wrote: > Message-ID: <004801c24cb7$be21af80$1f3dc6d8 at rclackey.stic.net> > From: "Roy C. Lackey" > To: > Subject: Re: (urth) PEACE: 3 Misses > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 23:19:04 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Matthew responding to me: >>> I can make nothing of "Tyler". >> Not having read Peace I have no idea if there's any relevance but the word >> can mean door or gate keeper. Archaic and obsolete except in Masonic >> Lodges where the additional meaning of keeping out the uninitiated applies >> and Tyler is a formal position. To tyle the lodge; bar the doors assured >> that only the aurhorised are within. > So, Helen Birkhead Tyler yields . . . > > torch + shininghead (?) + gate keeper(?) > > flame-topped gate keeper? > > Like the cherubim with flaming swords at the gates of Eden, guarding the way > to the tree of life? > > -Roy > > > -- > Message-ID: <14C3784DB7932F458F3A929D779546400235D648 at smtexmb02.siebel.com> > From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" > To: "'urth at urth.net'" > Subject: (urth) Coldhouse Banshee > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 09:27:00 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Good heavens ... Stone Ox has brought up a marvellous correspondence, > and then missed something that ... well, I guess it isn't obvious > because I never saw it before either, but somehow it jumped out of > his posting at me: >> Jack stays in the barn haunted by the banshee three nights. > ...as does the coldhouse prank victim (Friday, Saturday, Sunday nights). > > Okay, then: making the banshee story as abstract as possible... J > wants very badly a treasure in F's possession. F dislikes / looks down > on J / regards J as a poor recipient for the treasure, but for some > reason does not give an outright "No." Instead, he sets J to spend three > nights in a place which should kill him. > > Now, one of the things the embedded stories in PEACE seem to do is to > provide better or happier endings to some of the situations in Weer's > life. So I am moved to speculate that the Coldhouse Prank was not a > prank at all, but a deliberat attempt to keep a "real world" (Weer's > reality) J from acquiring something that a "real world" F did not want > him to have but could not deny him. > > To those for whom the book is fresher in their minds than it is in > mine, then: Do any possible real-world F's and J's come to mind? The > most obvious candidate for F would be Julius, who owns the barn / > coldhouse... is this even plausible? And if so, who would be J? > > (Is this another candidate for when Den "really" died?) > > --Blattid > > > -- > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 10:59:19 -0700 > To: urth at urth.net > From: Michael Andre-Driussi > Subject: (urth) Coldhouse Den-die > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Blattid, regarding the coldhouse prank death, wrote: >> (Is this another candidate for when Den "really" died?) > Well, er, yes and no. > > If Weer is lying about his age at the time (invalidating the big anchor for > the current operating timeline), then the coldhouse death could be his own, > just as he might be a dead boy next to his chemistry set. > > (And he would lie about his age ostensibly to distance himself from the > prank if he was the perpetrator, too. In addition to lying about his age > to avoid facing the fact that he himself died there.) > > But if Weer is not lying about his age, and the victim's details are true, > then no, the death cannot be Weer's. > > =mantis= > > > > -- > Message-ID: <14C3784DB7932F458F3A929D779546400235D64E at smtexmb02.siebel.com> > From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" > To: "'urth at urth.net'" > Subject: RE: (urth) Coldhouse Den-die > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 11:23:21 -0700 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net >> Blattid, regarding the coldhouse prank death, wrote: >>> (Is this another candidate for when Den "really" died?) >> Well, er, yes and no. >> >> If Weer is lying about his age at the time (invalidating the >> big anchor for the current operating timeline), then the >> coldhouse death could be his own, just as he might be a >> dead boy next to his chemistry set. > Which was in fact my point ... This is just a goof, really, but > it's a stfnal idea that I've played with many time and never > come up with a good storyline for ... I've often had the idea > of, well, if you can have multiple-sheaf futures, why not multiple- > sheaf pasts? And then what if Alden, the Reasonably Friendly Ghost, > actually has lived multiple versions of his life and died at > several different points along the timeline ... — It would > certainly clear up (by making irrelevant) many of the > inconsistencies in the storyline(s). So he died of a stroke, and > he died playing with his chemistry set, and he died in the > coldhouse prank ... Just a goof, as I said. > > But I'm dead serious about the coldhouse == the barn. > > --Blattid > > > -- > Date: Mon, 26 Aug 2002 18:27:21 +0000 (GMT) > From: Josh Geller > To: urth at urth.net > Subject: (urth) The Devil In A Forest and St. Olaf of Norway > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > > > The Devil In A Forest is perhaps a minor work, but an extremely > interesting one. > > There's a hamlet in the woods, the woodcutters who are relics of a > previous stage of civilization, a bandit who is a woodcutter aristocrat, a > witch who knows the technology of the old civilization, megalithic ruins > that are 'not a town' etc. > > This is one of the most valuable books for people trying to understand the > old civilization of Europe. > > There's a story about King Olaf the Holy of Norway. See, it was generally > known that he was a reincarnation of Olaf Geirstadtalf, who was buried in > the mound at Geirstadt. There had been a prophecy to the effect, he had > Olaf G.'s sword that came out of the mound etc. The problem was that St. > Olaf was occupied with the forcible Christianization of Norway, and it > sort of looked bad that a Christian king should be an incarnate elf. So > they did a little stage play, where the King and some of his companions > (who would also have been out of the mound, by the old way) went to Olaf > G's mound on horseback and one of the companions asked the King if > he didn't remember when they had been there before, and St. Olaf answered > that it was not possible for a person to live more than once, because you > lived once, died once and were resurrected once on the Last Day. Then he > was overcome with emotion and rode away, because (in my view) what he was > saying was so much at conflict with the reality. > > Wolfe has a good grasp on all of this, as he shows in 'Devil' and also in > the Latro books. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > . > > > > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 07:57 PM 9/1/02 -0400, you wrote: > Message-ID: <013101c25166$e9aa2070$d5456c42@akt> > From: "Alice K. Turner" > To: > Subject: Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth > Date: Sat, 31 Aug 2002 23:23:06 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > hartshorn, > > Yes, they (discussions, not discussers, necessarily--it remains to be seen) > are this loony. Help us back to some semblance of sanity. >> Is it really possible that all the discussions on this list have been this >> loony, and it is only now I come back after some time away that I am able >> to >> judge them properly? :-) > -alga > > > > > -- > Message-ID: <20020901084122.65286.qmail at web40307.mail.yahoo.com> > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 09:41:22 +0100 (BST) > From: Nicholas Gevers > Subject: (urth) Newt's main referent > To: urth at urth.net > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Considering when EXODUS FROM THE LONG SUN was being > written (1994-5), Councillor Newt has a pretty obvious > real-life referent: Newt Gingrich, elected Speaker of > the US House of Representatives after the unexpected > Republican congressional election victories of > November 1994. From what we see of Newt, the > resemblance is pretty profound... > > --Nick Gevers. > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Everything you'll ever need on one web page > from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts > http://uk.my.yahoo.com > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 07:57 PM 8/25/02 -0400, you wrote: > From: StoneOx17 at aol.com > Message-ID: <122.160adf50.2a9a3b34 at aol.com> > Date: Sun, 25 Aug 2002 09:52:52 EDT > Subject: (urth) PEACE: the tale of the banshee > To: urth at urth.net > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Hello, > > Despite all the effort spent analyzing many of the embedded stories in Peace, > there seems to have been relatively little written in this forum about the > banshee story. I think that the participants in this story can be identified > with some of the main characters in Peace, and that this story answers the > question of "what went wrong?" with Wolfe's relationship to Margaret. Roy > Lackey gave much of the same answer to this question already, without relying > on the hints hidden in the banshee tale, in > http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0030/0104.html > but the banshee story fills in a few more of the details. > > My identification in the story is: > Den Weer is Jack, > Margaret Lorn is Molly, > Carl Lorn is Molly's father, > Julian Smart is the banshee. > > Let's review the banshee story. > > Molly's father owns a big farm and Molly is his only child, so whoever > marries her inherits the farm. Jack and Molly are in love, but Molly's > father doesn't want Molly to marry Jack, "because Jack had nothing to bring > to the wedding but his own two hands and a smile." > > In the "what went wrong?" speech, Weer says "I was intelligent and > industrious; Margaret and I loved one another deeply." But when he comes > back from college, the Depression has wiped out all of his fortune and made > jobs very hard to find. How is he to make a living? > > One possibility would be for Weer to marry Margaret and move to the Lorn's > farm. The Lorns likely still have their farm, since they wouldn't have had > large bank loans, because the farm has been in their family for years and > Carl Lorn is naturally frugal. Even though the income from the farm has been > greatly reduced, they can at least grow enough food to feed themselves. It > would be reasonable for Weer to help on the farm if he is to marry Margaret; > she is the Lorn's only child, and so will inherit the farm. Later in the > book, the farmer delivering potatoes to the factory says "When I was a boy, > there wasn't anything anybody could have that was better'n a farm. If a > doctor or a banker could marry a widow that had a good one, they'd stop what > they was doing and work it." This farmer is ten or twenty years older than > Weer, but taking this and the banshee story together, I conclude that when > Weer was about to graduate, he and Margaret proposed that they get married > and that Den move out to the farm and help work it. > > > > > > > > > > > From the banshee story, we see that Carl Lorn didn't want Weer to marry > Margaret. He disapproved of selling the egg, and he's tight with money > ("only Daddy never gets nothing at the store if he can find something else > that'll do") so Weer has two strikes against him, being Olivia's nephew and > being penniless. In the banshee story, Molly's father tells Jack he'd have > to spend the whole night in the barn haunted by the banshee and not be thrown > out; in Weer's real life, Carl probably told Weer that he wouldn't let > Margaret marry him unless he could support her. So Weer has to take the job > at the factory (the real-life parallel of the barn); unfortunately, the > coldhouse prank kills somebody, and Julius blackmails him into staying at the > factory until Julius dies. In this scenario, it doesn't even matter whether > Margaret knows about the coldhouse prank. Weer can't marry her unless he > finds another job which pays better, and he can't leave this job because of > Julius' blackmail. Eventually, Margaret gets fed up with Weer's inaction and > marries Mr. Price (whom we suspect, from his surname, has sufficient money). > > There are some interesting differences between the banshees in Peace and the > banshees in Irish folklore. Looking on the web, it seems that in Irish > folklore, the banshee is a woman sidhe who wails before somebody is going to > die (and most important families have an associated banshee that predicts > deaths in that family). In some versions of the legend, if you catch the > banshee, she has to tell you who is going to die. However, she only > foretells deaths, unlike Wolfe's banshee, who causes them. Note that Wolfe > is playing off the folklore banshee: when his banshee is caught, she does > tell Jack "who's to be born," although one might suspect that she's lying out > of spite. > > Wolfe's banshees are ghosts (quite fittingly for Peace) who are "the spirits > of midwives that have killed the baby because someone gave gold to them to do > it that it might not inherit." This gives grounds for identifying the > banshee as Julius: in > http://urth.net/urth/archives/v0205/1043.txt.shtml, > I speculated that Julius may have killed Mr. Tilly so as to inherit the carny > business, which, while not an exact parallel, is certainly similar. > > Jack stays in the barn haunted by the banshee three nights. The first two > times, the banshee forces him to speak the name of someone whom she later > kills, first "the meanest man [Jack] can think of, a man that robbed > everybody and never gave poor folk a penny," and second, "a real old lady > that was goin' to die anyway." The third time, he defeats the banshee. If > we identify the banshee with Julius, this is reminiscent of Weer's comment > that he recalls uncle Julius clearly "only at three stages of his life." The > first stage is when Julius tells the story of Mr. Tilly. The second stage is > at aunt Olivia's funeral. And the last is when Julius is an old man and the > president. This seems a little strange, because Den lived with Julius for > quite a while, and this period doesn't seem included in either of these > stages. However, if we take these three stages as corresponding to the three > nights in the banshee story, then we are led to suspect that Julius killed > both Mr. Tilly and Olivia for their inheritances. We know (since Wolfe has > confirmed it) that it was Peacock who actually ran Olivia over in his car, > but there are at least two reasons to suspect that Peacock might have > conspired with Julius: first, Julius Smart and Professor Peacock were good > friends, and second, there's the mysterious letter from Peacock to Julius > that Weer is unable to read. > > Is there any more evidence for this correspondence between the banshee story > and Weer's life? In the other stories in Peace that we know have parallels > (the princess and her suitors, and the marid), there is a correspondence > hidden in the characters' names. The link from Molly to Mary to Margaret > seems obvious, but I don't see how to get from Jack to Den. Any ideas? > > - Stone Ox > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 08:02 PM 8/28/02 -0400, you wrote: > Message-ID: <001501c24df5$84ab72b0$d5456c42@akt> > From: "Alice K. Turner" > To: > Subject: Re: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > Date: Tue, 27 Aug 2002 14:13:45 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Crush, have you met Robert Borski? You're both gifted with imagination plus, > and should have much to discuss. > > -alga >> For those who haven't checked out Crush's Long Sun page >> (http://www.visualclick.com/~jwynn/GeneWolfe/LongSun/), >> I think it ought to be required reading for Long Sun discussion. > -- > From: "James Wynn" > To: > Subject: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:52:51 -0500 > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > The nice comments I've received recently on my "articlettes" have surely > turned my head. > > I do need to thank Blattid for correcting my grammar on the use of the word > "inhuma". Having not read the Short Sun books yet, I see now that my usage > was wildly speculative. I've updated the Dionysus article and over the next > few days I'll search the other articles for similar mistakes (I'm probably > still using the word wrong). If anyone else has any technical comments, they > will surely receive a glad hand. :) > > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes [mailto:ddanehy at siebel.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 5:36 PM > To: 'urth at urth.net' > Subject: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > > For those who haven't checked out Crush's Long Sun page > (http://www.visualclick.com/~jwynn/GeneWolfe/LongSun/), > I think it ought to be required reading for Long Sun discussion. I > definitely don't agree with every conclusion he reaches (for example, > I very much doubt that Incus is female, or that Hyacinth a male chem), > but, wow, there is some good good stuff here. > --Blattid > > > -- > > > > > -- > From: "James Wynn" > To: > Subject: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 08:31:22 -0500 > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net >> Crush, have you met Robert Borski? You're both gifted with imagination >> plus, >> and should have much to discuss. >> -alga > I've never met Robert Borski, although I enjoyed his recent Peace article. I > haven't to my knowledge met anyone on this list, although it is my desire to > go to WorldCon one day and put a few faces to the names here. > :-D > > -----Original Message----- > From: Alice K. Turner [mailto:aturner6 at nyc.rr.com] > Sent: Tuesday, August 27, 2002 1:14 PM > To: urth at urth.net > Subject: Re: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal >> For those who haven't checked out Crush's Long Sun page >> (http://www.visualclick.com/~jwynn/GeneWolfe/LongSun/), >> I think it ought to be required reading for Long Sun discussion. > -- > > > > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 07:57 PM 8/30/02 -0400, you wrote: > From: "James Wynn" > To: > Subject: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 09:31:57 -0500 > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="us-ascii" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > The following is my response to A. Bin Talal who contacted me off-list but > has offered of his own accord for my response to be posted on-list. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ > Thanks so much for your comments. > > You say: > In Thelxepeia's Mirrors you assert that Hyacinth is male chem, your > arguments for Hyacinth being a chem are very compelling, but do not explain > how she became Viron's top prostitute. > > Response > Well, the story is somewhat vague on exactly how that occurred. It probably > began while she was sold by her (I'll refer to Hyacinth in the feminine) > father to be a housemaid. She was attractive and she began to make money for > sexual favors. From there, she began to take on the necessary modifications > to make even more money. > > You say: > The other arguments about overpowering the pilot could be taken as clues she > is not human but a chem, a chem female should be stronger then a human > > Response > True, and I consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence that she is > chem - not male. Actually, Marble DOES over-power Musk. This brings up a > point that I should segregate those arguments that Hyacinth is a MALE chem > from those that show she is MERELY chem. > > You say: > The arguments for her being a male are alas unsound, you seem to use > circular logic, she is a male because of 'thematic requirement'(which you > assert there aren't any), the story about Apollo's lover and the church, but > she represent that theme because she is a male!! in short you assume she is > male, then conclude she is male, your conclusion is correct but you can't > generalize it (I took a course on formal logic, never thinking I will be > using it. > > Response > I don't consider my arguments circular. I consider the story of Hyacinthus > is to be a thematic *allowance* that she "could" reasonably be male but not > a requirement. If one accepts that Hyacinth is chem, then the concept of > homosexuality might just as reasonably be satisfied by Silk's stated > doppelganger relationship with Sgt. Sand (in Blood's house in Calde of the > Long Sun). On the other hand, that would still not be homosexuality since > chems are sexually divergent like bios. Still, Wolfe *could* have used Silks > "mentoring" relationship with Horn on the airship to incorporate that aspect > of the Apollo-Hyacinthus relationship - Wolfe does a lot of character > syncretism in the sub textual themes of the Long Sun (I haven't yet > published my essay on Silk and Auk playing duo roles as Hephaestus and as > Aristaeus, or how Mint, Marble, and Rose merge into the Myrtle-nymphs, but I > will after I finish reading Robert Graves' "White Goddess.") > > My point is that while it "fits" for Hyacinth to be male, she doesn't NEED > to be as IMO Incus NEEDS to be female because of the roll she plays > regarding Quetzal (the demon-Dionysus) and the roll she plays in the > Aristaeus story (not that Incus particularly needs to be a female, but in > the sense that only a female could play those roles). > > The most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male (there are weaker > ones) are the following: > 1. Hyacinth's statement: > "You know what I look like without all this [make-up and clothes]?...Like a > boy, only with tits down to my waist." > 2. In the Silks conversation with Horn on the airship, discussing why he > tried to kill himself, Silk talks about Marble's lie about being Moly and > the general plight of the chem population *due to the lack* of female chems. > Silk further points out, "Some male chems were artisans and farm laborers, > from what I know of them, and a few were servants - butlers and so forth." > 3. In the same conversation, Horn also says that Hyacinth behaves physically > weak and in a female-identifiable manner, because she wants Silk to be > attracted to her. Just as the fierce lynx, Lion (a female with a male > name-note that this is specifically pointed out) pretends to be kittenish > with Mucor. > > Again, thank you so much for your interest, your arguments really made me > think.. > > > > > -- > From: "James Wynn" > To: > Subject: RE: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:15:12 -0500 > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > After checking my sources, here's my response to Robert Borski's questions > (thanks again Mr. Borski): > Robert Borski said > > According to you she's a chem. So does this mean that she fabricated the > story about her father being a head clerk at the Juzgado? (Newt by my > reckoning.) And again, is she lying (or implanted with false memories) when > she tells Auk that her father is a "pig's arse"? > > My response: > No and no. Actually Silk says that he went to meet him. I sure her father is > NOT Newt. Newt is a commissioner at the Juzgado in charge of the Guard > finances. Hyacinth's father is a "head clerk" of the Fisc. Silk also met > with an "officer" of the Fisc while he was there. Clearly her father is well > down the chain of command. BTW: see the entry on Newt in "Things of the Long > Sun". > > There's no reason that her father could not be a chemical person. And as > Silk discovered in Nightside, a talus can be bribed. What would a talus do > with money? Marble explains in Exodus, "The same thing anyone would do with > money, dear" So chems are not essentially different from bios when it comes > to corrupt conduct. Is it so amazing that a chem parent would prostitute his > child for money when bios sometimes do it? > > Actually, the well-flagged concept that chems and taluses can be corrupted > for money is sitting around in the story like an unfired gun in a play. I've > fired it by tapping Hyacinth and her father as examples. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---------- > Robert Borski said > And who is the woman described as her dead mother that Hyacinth sees at > Mainframe? Nettle seems to know her (I've theorized elsewhere she's Lime) > > My response: > The woman was Hyacinth's mother. It is easier for me to imagine how chems > would "go to Mainframe" when they die than it is for me to see how it is > done with bios. As for Nettle knowing her that's an interesting question, > but unless her mother can be clearly identified with a bio female it doesn't > change anything. I'm curious about your "Lime" theory. I don't find it > explained in the Urth archives. In the archives I DID see you make a > reference to a snide comment by Wolfe regarding Hyacinth's mother in a "LS > question list" - what is this? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Robert Borski said > Simply put, are there really that many chems running around outside the > military and the religious orders, and are they as prone and subject to > toxic parenting as your average bios? > > My response: > Well there's not that many chems running around outside the military -- > relatively. Marble is the only one I'm aware of in a religious order. > Non-military chems are rare relative to when the Whorl left Urth, but they > are not non-existent. No adults in Viron remarks on chems as if they'd never > seen one before. I suppose if you or I were to walk the streets of Viron, we > would no doubt think we saw chems everywhere we looked. > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > -- > Robert Borski said > Since you're speculating about someone whose life history does not end with > SHORT SUN, you also need to read Wolfe's follow-up series because there's an > event in there that makes your theory even less tenable. I won't spoil it > for you; suffice it to say I don't think rust is the causative agent. > > > I cannot express the pleasure I get from these e-mails. > > -- Crush > > > > > -- > From: "James Wynn" > To: > Subject: RE: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 10:35:29 -0500 > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > I intended to clip the following Boski question from my response since I > answered it in my other recent posting. Failing to clip it makes it look > like I'm being sarcastic when that was NOT my intention. > > > Robert Borski said > Since you're speculating about someone whose life history does not end with > SHORT SUN, you also need to read Wolfe's follow-up series because there's an > event in there that makes your theory even less tenable. I won't spoil it > for you; suffice it to say I don't think rust is the causative agent. > > > > > > -- > Message-ID: <20020830203403.90592.qmail at web14410.mail.yahoo.com> > Date: Fri, 30 Aug 2002 13:34:03 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jerry Friedman > Subject: Re: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth > To: urth at urth.net > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > > --- James Wynn wrote: >> The following is my response to A. Bin Talal who contacted me off-list >> but >> has offered of his own accord for my response to be posted on-list. >> ------------------------------------------------------------------ >> Thanks so much for your comments. > ... >> You say: >> The other arguments about overpowering the pilot could be taken as clues >> she >> is not human but a chem, a chem female should be stronger then a human >> >> Response >> True, and I consider her over-powering the pilot to be evidence that she >> is >> chem - not male. > Why is that inconsistent with her being a healthy young human woman who > has experience at fighting? She takes the pilot by surprise, ramming her > thumbs into her (the pilot's) eyes and kicking her knees until she falls > down. Seems quite reasonable to me. Silk thinks Hyacinth blinded the > pilot, but Chenille (I think) disagrees. This is evidence that Hyacinth > is *not* a chem--someone with superhuman strength could (I imagine) > obviously blind a person this way by breaking her eyeballs, and probably > obviously cripple her knees as well. >> Actually, Marble DOES over-power Musk. This brings up a >> point that I should segregate those arguments that Hyacinth is a MALE >> chem >> from those that show she is MERELY chem. > Quite true. > ... >> The most straight-forward clues that Hyacinth is male (there are weaker >> ones) are the following: >> 1. Hyacinth's statement: >> "You know what I look like without all this [make-up and >> clothes]?...Like a >> boy, only with tits down to my waist." > She doesn't mean she has a penis. Silk would have spotted that (and then > would have nicknamed Hyacinth "Pinto"). I don't think this comment is > particularly amazing for a slender young woman who has had a breast > enhancement and tends to speak of her appearance deprecatingly. > Incidentally, it brings up what I think is one of the stronger criticisms > of your theory: would Silk really have sex with someone he knew was a > chem, and if not, could he really be fooled? >> 2. In the Silks conversation with Horn on the airship, discussing why he >> tried to kill himself, Silk talks about Marble's lie about being Moly >> and >> the general plight of the chem population *due to the lack* of female >> chems. >> Silk further points out, "Some male chems were artisans and farm >> laborers, >> from what I know of them, and a few were servants - butlers and so >> forth." > I don't see this as a straightforward clue. In fact, I don't see it as > evidence at all. >> 3. In the same conversation, Horn also says that Hyacinth behaves >> physically >> weak and in a female-identifiable manner, because she wants Silk to be >> attracted to her. Just as the fierce lynx, Lion (a female with a male >> name-note that this is specifically pointed out) pretends to be >> kittenish >> with Mucor. > This seems to be completely consistent with her being a tough young woman > thanks to the life at Orchid's that Chenille describes. > > By far the best clue I see that Hyacinth *could* be a chem is her name, as > you pointed out. But I see nothing to contradict the obvious > interpretation that she's a bio. > > Speaking of Chenille and names, this seems like a good time to restate my > theory that Chenille, who has an ambiguous name, could be a chromosmal > male with testicular feminization syndrome (perhaps Tussah's failed > attempt at a male heir?). > ... > > Jerry Friedman > > __________________________________________________ > Do You Yahoo!? > Yahoo! Finance - Get real-time stock quotes > http://finance.yahoo.com > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 07:59 PM 8/29/02 -0400, you wrote: > Message-ID: <000801c24ef0$d6dfbd60$ddf0c518@robertbo> > From: "Robert Borski" > To: > Subject: Re: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > Date: Wed, 28 Aug 2002 19:12:56 -0500 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net >>> Crush, have you met Robert Borski? You're both gifted with imagination >>> plus, >>> and should have much to discuss. >>> -alga >> I've never met Robert Borski, although I enjoyed his recent Peace article. > I > haven't to my knowledge met anyone on this list, although it is my desire > to > go to WorldCon one day and put a few faces to the names here. > > (Extending a right hand blithely across the aether.) How do you do, Crush! > > I've never met anyone on the list either, although Nigel Price and I talked > about getting together last spring; alas, while he was in the American > Midwest, I was in Central Europe. That being said, however, I fear you've > misread alga's comments, which were intended not as a suggestion that you > and I actually meet, but that your work, like mine, is neither valid nor > substantive, but rather falls into the realm of "fan fiction." Like me, > you've apparently been "swimming with undines," thus your severe > intellectual anoxia. Thank the stars she didn't call you my "partner in > flakiness," like she did Prion (aka Sean Whalen), who promptly left the list > after the tirade she leveled against him. And heaven forbid your work ever > find acceptance elsewhere; I fear the six essays I wrote on Wolfe that have > been published by The New York Review of Science Fiction have forever > sullied its reputation (obviously Ms. Turner's essays on John Crowley were > accepted by an editorial cadre in much more command of its critical > faculties). In other words expect a certain amount of ridicule, scorn, and > derision to your Long Sun exegeses by what is, thankfully, not a large > contingent on the list; if you're extremely unlucky, however, as I've been, > expect a fair amount of shrillness from you-know-who. > > Personally, I applaud your efforts. I don't agree with many of your > conclusions, but rather than take a cheap shot at what has obviously been a > labor of love, with a fair amount of scholarship ("Those who have original > thoughts, post; those who don't, carp"), I thought I'd ask you a few > questions about your Hyacinth essay. According to you she's a chem. So does > this mean that she fabricated the story about her father being a head clerk > at the Juzgado? (Newt by my reckoning.) And again, is she lying (or > implanted with false memories) when she tells Auk that her father is a > "pig's arse"? And who is the woman described as her dead mother that > Hyacinth sees at Mainframe? Nettle seems to know her (I've theorized > elsewhere she's Lime), but wouldn't she have to be a chem--as must be her > father? Simply put, are there really that many chems running around outside > the military and the religious orders, and are they as prone and subject to > toxic parenting as your average bios? Since you're speculating about someone > whose life history does not end with SHORT SUN, you also need to read > Wolfe's followup series because there's an event in there that makes your > theory even lesss tenable. I won't spoil it for you; suffice it to say I > don't think rust is the causitive agent. > > Robert Borski > > > > -- > From: "James Wynn" > To: > Subject: RE: (urth) Crush's Page and Quetzal > Date: Thu, 29 Aug 2002 18:05:38 -0500 > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Regarding essays at http://www.visualclick.com/~jwynn/GeneWolfe/LongSun/ > > Robert Borski said: > I fear you've misread alga's comments, which were intended not as a > suggestion that you and I actually meet, but that your work, like mine, is > neither valid nor substantive...In other words expect a certain amount of > ridicule, scorn, and derision to your Long Sun exegeses... > > My response: > Unfortunately, I'm not so harassed by fraternal greetings and compliments > that I can afford to exegete them when they come my way. I'll presume until > textually proven otherwise that by "imagination plus" Alga meant merely > "...plus imagination" rather than "...plus something-else-not-so-wonderful." > As for receiving derision, I should HOPE to converse with someone who feels > so strongly about the Long Sun series - that's why I published the essays on > a website. So deride away! It's up to the derider however to engage me > enough to respond. I purpose that no shots will be "cheap", I'll do all I > can to see that they are hard won. > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > Robert Borski said > I thought I'd ask you a few questions about your Hyacinth essay. > > My response: > I'm working on a response to your questions, but I can't finish until can > check my sources. Still I've received a couple emails offline on the > chem-Hyacinth theory that follow the same tack, and I'd like to respond to > that "tack" first. > > First if people are responding off-list because they feel more comfortable > for some reason, yet *really* want to discuss some point, that's fine. But > if someone responds off-list to keep from *humiliating* me, their concern is > misdirected. The purpose of this list, I would guess, is to exchange > opinions. > > Second, no matter WHAT one believes about Hyacinth, her impressive bosom is > bursting with lies and slight-of-hands about her *true* nature. As I say in > "Thelxepeia's Mirrors," the Hyacinth citation is not really finished and > won't be until after I re-read the books. I currently ONLY cite the clues > that she IS a chem rather than explain the (IMO) mis-directions that she is > NOT a chem. My conviction currently rests only on affirmative proofs. That's > only half the ballgame, I know. > > Consequently, while I think I allay certain general concerns like those Mr. > Borski is asking. I can't really address specific problems like "if Hyacinth > is a chem, how does she cry? or "then why is she CLAIM to be a junkie?" or > "why does she stuff her face with nectarines?" > > At the end of Silk's discussion with Horn on the airship, Silk says of his > reasons for trying to kill himself, "Isn't it obvious [after all I've told > you]?" Well it isn't "obvious." It IS (to me at this point), however, > inexorable. Still, I welcome all challenges to anything I've published on my > site, including this. Just understand that I can't answer > everything.....yet. > > Third, as to my need to read the Short Sun, I guess I will have to read this > one if only to have the credentials to discuss Hyacinth. But I've paid > enough attention to the Urth list discussion to know she's dies and there is > some ambiguity as to how. This is not a spoiler for me because: > Since Silk and Hyacinth are Apollo and Hyacinthus -- and there is more > reason than just her name to suggest they are - it is necessary that Silk > will directly cause her death - the only question is how. > > I'm inclined to disbelieve, though obviously without evidence, that the > manner of her death insists that she's bio since every person whose brought > this up, felt the need to supply other (less persuasive?) proofs. Unless > there is blood all over the walls, it's hard to imagine that it will present > in more difficult puzzle than why does she produce snot when she cries and > why is her breath warm. > > Does the event in question take place in "On Blue's Waters?" I do have that > one already. > > Curiously, I kind of expected my other (I thought) controversial theory, > that Incus is a woman, to provoke at least as many challenges as Hyacinth's. > I feel much on much better ground to defend it. Then again, perhaps I *have* > defended it better since no one has yet offered a detailed challenge on > that. > > A sole-proprietor in flakiness, > -- Crush > > > > > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 07:57 PM 9/2/02 -0400, you wrote: > Message-ID: <019e01c2521c$941cea00$d5456c42@akt> > From: "Alice K. Turner" > To: > Subject: Re: (urth) Newt's main referent > Date: Sun, 1 Sep 2002 21:03:41 -0400 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Good call, Nick. Some major convention (WorldCon, I guess) was held in, I > think, Atlanta in the 80s and Newt, for reasons that I think had to do with > Bruce Sterling, was the banquet speaker. Though I'm not much of a > conventioneer, I attended this (my parents lived in Atlanta) as a friend of > Lucius Shepard, and, though I never met him there, I'm pretty sure Wolfe was > on hand. I'd only barely heard of Gingrich at that point. But, among the > more politicially minded, there was much furor, and a contingent, including > Lucius (but not me), ostentatiously walked out of the banquet as Gingrich > was introduced. Can't remember much about the speech or the evening > otherwise except that both were boring--but that you expect. Gingrich seemed > more menacing later, but that was the explicit SF connection. (Sorry to be > so vague on particulars, but I've sort of accidentally attended a few > conventions or parts of them; the only ones I remember well are those I'd > planned in advance, and this was a last-minute thing--if it wasn't Atlanta I > apologize, but it was somewhere else I just happened to be for other > reasons.) > > -alga >> Considering when EXODUS FROM THE LONG SUN was being >> written (1994-5), Councillor Newt has a pretty obvious >> real-life referent: Newt Gingrich, elected Speaker of >> the US House of Representatives after the unexpected >> Republican congressional election victories of >> November 1994. From what we see of Newt, the >> resemblance is pretty profound... >> >> --Nick Gevers. >> >> __________________________________________________ >> Do You Yahoo!? >> Everything you'll ever need on one web page >> from News and Sport to Email and Music Charts >> http://uk.my.yahoo.com >> >> -- > -- > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 01:16:54 -0400 (EDT) > From: Michael Straight > To: urth at urth.net > Subject: Re: (urth) Newt's main referent > Message-ID: > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > On Sun, 1 Sep 2002, Alice K. Turner wrote: >> Good call, Nick. Some major convention (WorldCon, I guess) was held in, I >> think, Atlanta in the 80s and Newt, for reasons that I think had to do with >> Bruce Sterling, was the banquet speaker. > Also, at the time, Newt was one of the most famous science-fiction writers > in America (along with William Shatner and, arguably, Stephen King). > > -Rostrum > > > > -- > Date: Mon, 02 Sep 2002 01:29:43 -0700 > From: maa32 > Subject: (urth) male hyacinth > Sender: maa32 > To: urth at urth.net > Message-id: <3D737498 at webmail.nau.edu> > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > A couple months ago I posted on the evidence for a male hyacinth, and I was > taken aback to discover that someone else thought that up independently - it > was kind of a joke. Let me briefly go over why I thought so: right before > Silk meets Hyacinth for the first time, he finds all kinds of statues of boy > toys for the gods: Ganymede and Catamitus, both boy lovers that I normally > associate with Musk. But Hyacinthus is the same kind of mythic figure: male > lover of Apollo, stricken dead by the jealous wind. But instead of Musk, he > immediately meets Hyacinth, who has fake breasts. Then later, in Calde of > the > Long Sun ,Patera Quetzal, when Silk claims that he slept with a woman, > says he > doesn't believe that his augur has done that. It sounds like nothing, but > Wolfe has a ton of those double entendres in his work. I'm just surprised > that someone else came up with the same thematic idea - the evidence isn't as > sketchy as the evidence that suggest that Patera Pike is Blood's father, but > it's pretty sketchy. I don't see the chem part as convincing, but I think > Hyacinth could certainly be an ex-male who had a little transformation > enacted > and it explains the sterility of Silk's relationship. > I don't know how seriously to take these things, really. Not as seriously as > a take a lot of the other stuff I post. > Marc Aramini > > > > -- > From: matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk > To: urth at urth.net > Message-ID: <80256C28.0036FA7B.00 at ldnmta01.guardian.co.uk> > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:34:24 +0100 > Subject: Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > > > > On 31/08/2002 19:24:14 Andy Robertson wrote: >> Is it really possible that all the discussions on this list have been >> this >> loony, and it is only now I come back after some time away that I am able >> to >> judge them properly? :-) > A break does provide one with perspective, does it not? ;-) > > Matthew > > > > -- > Message-ID: <007301c25251$02914a60$f3919ed9@abcomcus> > From: "Andy Robertson" > To: > Subject: Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 08:18:54 +0100 > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; > charset="iso-8859-1" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Ah well, I love it anyway. But the idea that Hyacinth is a transsexual bio > does seem slightly more probable, I confess: though I really see no need for > it. > > hartshorn > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: > To: > Sent: Monday, September 02, 2002 10:34 AM > Subject: Re: FW: (urth) FW: Elucidations of the Long Sun:Hyacinth >> On 31/08/2002 19:24:14 Andy Robertson wrote: >>> Is it really possible that all the discussions on this list have been >>> this >>> loony, and it is only now I come back after some time away that I am able >>> to >>> judge them properly? :-) >> A break does provide one with perspective, does it not? ;-) >> >> Matthew > -- > From: matthew.malthouse at guardian.co.uk > To: urth at urth.net > Message-ID: <80256C28.0038FC81.00 at ldnmta01.guardian.co.uk> > Date: Mon, 2 Sep 2002 10:56:20 +0100 > Subject: Re: (urth) male hyacinth > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > > > > On 02/09/2002 09:29:43 maa32 wrote: >> A couple months ago I posted on the evidence for a male hyacinth, and I >> was >> taken aback to discover that someone else thought that up independently - >> it >> was kind of a joke. Let me briefly go over why I thought so: right >> before >> Silk meets Hyacinth for the first time, he finds all kinds of statues of >> boy >> toys for the gods: Ganymede and Catamitus, both boy lovers that I >> normally >> associate with Musk. But Hyacinthus is the same kind of mythic figure: > male > lover of Apollo, stricken dead by the jealous wind. But instead of Musk, > he > immediately meets Hyacinth, who has fake breasts. > > I too the statuary, Hyacinth's potential androgeny etc as re-inforcement > of Musk's character and lifestyle. I'm far from convinced that - even > with Wolfe's infamous multi-layered work - there's any need to see more to > it than that. > > If one posits that Hyacinth is ex-male, male , chem male or female one has > to answer what purpose it serves. More what purpose would it serve to > have Silk fall in love with such a being. That would seem contrary to > Wolfe's normal path in such matters and would require explanation. > > Matthew > > > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 --- ### Ian Lamont *03 Sep 2002, 12:59 · follows Ian Lamont* > At 07:56 PM 8/24/02 -0400, you wrote: > Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 17:29:10 -0700 > From: maa32 > Subject: (urth) coldhouse > Sender: maa32 > To: urth at urth.net > Message-id: <3D683069 at webmail.nau.edu> > MIME-version: 1.0 > Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > I had always assumed that the victim in the coldhouse prank was Sherry Gold's > brother, who was not on the best of terms with his parents and wanted to move > out (as I recall from a readiing a few years ago - or was he already > living in > a boardinghouse?) Perhaps he confronted Weer about his sister after > getting a > job there (he was looking for a job, right?) and then Weer took the > opportunity to play a convenient prank on him. Of course, I need to read > Peace again. Just my two cents. At least Gold has motive to get close to > Weer, and Weer has reason to get rid of Sherry's brother. > Marc Aramini > > > > -- > Message-Id: > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 18:30:24 -0700 > To: urth at urth.net > From: Michael Andre-Driussi > Subject: Re: (urth) coldhouse > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > Marc Aramini wrote: >> I had always assumed that the victim in the coldhouse prank was Sherry >> Gold's >> brother, who was not on the best of terms with his parents and wanted to >> move >> out (as I recall from a readiing a few years ago - or was he already >> living in >> a boardinghouse?) > The coldhouse prank was in 1938. > > Weer met Sherry around 1954. > > Sherry was only just born at the time of the prank (1954 - 16 = 1938). > Which is rather weird, come to think of it. > > =mantis= > > > Sirius Fiction > booklets on Gene Wolfe, John Crowley > 29 copies of "Snake's-hands" until OP! > http://www.siriusfiction.com/ > > > > -- > From: StoneOx17 at aol.com > Message-ID: > Date: Fri, 23 Aug 2002 21:54:07 EDT > Subject: Re: (urth) The Coldhouse Prank > To: urth at urth.net > MIME-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" > Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Reply-To: urth at urth.net > > In a message dated 8/23/2002 7:57:25 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Robert Borski > writes: >> Stone Ox writes: >>> Robert Borski argues quite eloquently that Ted Singer's father is the >>> victim >>> in the coldhouse prank. I don't think this can be right, because the >>> victim >>> lived in a boarding house, was locked in on Friday, and nobody >>> noticed he >>> was >>> missing until he was discovered on Monday. If the victim had had a wife >>> or >>> girlfriend, surely he would have been discovered sooner. >> But look who imparts this information about the weekend tragedy and the >> boarding house connection: Dan French, who, not having been a factory >> employee at the time, is simply repeating the sanitized version of the >> story >> as it's been spun down through the years and perhaps even through >> semi-official channels, since there's been a coverup. (I do, however, and >> for obvious reasons, like the notion that the victim died on Friday.) He >> doesn't remember the name of the victim and is completly unaware there >> is an >> even more sinister side to the entire episode, with a lone person being >> responsible for the victim's death. As Den also reminds us earlier, such >> stories have a way of becoming "both faded and embroidered by time," which >> results in a further blurring of the details. And lastly when Dan French >> tells the story of the sidhe, it deviates from the traditional in several >> respects. >> In other words I think there's plenty of reason to doubt his version of the >> story. > When Dan French is telling the story of the sidhe, it's an embedded story, > and Wolfe has changed, or invented, many (if not all) of the embedded > stories, so as to shed light on events in the book. On the other hand, if we > believe that Weer was the perpetrator of the coldhouse prank, I'd consider it > part of Weer's own life story, and I'm much more reluctant to believe that > Wolfe is altering the details here. But this relates to the whole unicorn > debate, which I think we could argue about for eternity. > I just had the thought that maybe part of the reason there's been so much > discussion about Mr. Tilly's story and Doris's story is that it's not clear > whether they should be counted as embedded stories or not. > > -Stone Ox > > > > -- I am on vacation during the last week of August. I will get back to you after I return on Labor Day. Thanks, Ian Lamont Assistant Web Site Manager Harvard Alumni Affairs and Development Office 124 Mount Auburn Street Cambridge, MA 02138 Tel: (617) 495-8183 Fax: (617) 495-0521 ---